Environment Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

There is an initiative at Natural Resources with respect to energy efficiency. I think that engagement is probably best sought from my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources.

I can say that we came forward with the budget the other day, and we'll be coming forward in short order with industrial targets. There's the issue of climate change, efforts to reduce greenhouse gases, efforts to reduce air-pollutant smog and pollution. There will never be the final plan tabled. There will be the need for constant, continuing action to hear good ideas, see best practices, and come forward with additional initiatives—not just today but tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, 10 years, 30 years from now. The next generation and the next generation's generation will continue to work on this.

I've heard those ideas, and there certainly are benefits to them.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Will you support our call for a just transition fund for workers who are affected by some of the policies brought forward by the opposition or by your own government when their places of employment are affected by government policies?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's certainly an issue the NDP has come forward with. I don't want to see a big subsidy to one particular sector. Obviously when we come forward with industrial regulation, there is an impact. We need to take a balanced approach. I know the New Democrats have come forward with this, and I'm always interested in hearing what the New Democrats have to say.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Your government committed $200 million for perhaps the most devastating effects of climate change we've seen so far last year, the mountain pine beetle in western Canada. Of that $200 million, approximately $11 million in total was spent for an airport improvement.

How am I meant to go back to my communities in northwestern British Columbia and say that your government is doing what it takes to make the transitions necessary for their economies, when they are on the front edge of what is being described as the biggest ecological and perhaps economic devastation that rural northern British Columbia has ever seen?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Outside of the Arctic, it's certainly probably the best example of the huge effects of climate change. My colleague the Minister of Natural Resources will probably be best able to talk to the specifics of the forestry industry and the pine beetle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Vellacott.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister. I appreciate it.

It was a big celebration day for farmers, for rural people out in my province of Saskatchewan, particularly the homegrown biofuels producers. It was a great boost for us, and a real milestone day.

I'd like your comment particularly on the comparison, I guess, of these renewable fuels initiatives. How does this compare with the previous government and the Liberal record?

What I like is that for my province of Saskatchewan and the moneys that may in fact be available as people come forward, Iogen may be one of those in terms of that $500 million fund for renewables. Some $1.5 billion over seven years was major good news for the province of Saskatchewan and for rural communities all across the country, of course. As we commercialize for the next generation, I do commend you for that.

I would appreciate a quick comment with respect to the whole Canadian biofuels strategy. If you have any, please provide estimates in terms of numbers of jobs as well. Growing bushels of grain may not be your area of expertise, so I'll maybe go to the Minister of Agriculture on that, but do you have any sense of that? To me, it's huge in terms of my backyard, Saskatchewan.

I would appreciate your comment in respect of how that compares with the previous government, particularly on the Liberal record with respect to biofuels initiatives.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

There is obviously great capacity for rural economic development in biofuels. It's a very exciting initiative from Iogen Corporation, a company that's located in the great riding of Ottawa South. Iogen is really a world leader in cellulosic ethanol production. They have a great demonstration plant in Ottawa, and they want to build one just south of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan.

One of the things that I think are important is the new technology and how we can make it benefit Canada and the Canadian economy, particularly in the agricultural sector. There are great opportunities there. The cellulosic ethanol is really cutting-edge, and I'm very excited about it. I've toured the Iogen facility three or four times over the years, since I was a newly elected member of the provincial parliament. There is a real potential there for Canada to play a lead role.

You literally have countries like the United States and Germany fighting to attract Iogen, and we're going to work hard to make that part of the initiative if we can. We cited Iogen as a great example in the budget, and it's one I'm very excited about.

The real benefit there is that it doesn't just take the corn, it deals with the whole stock. But whether it's whole-stock corn or whether it's canola, there is a variety of options there, and we're excited about them.

My colleague the Minister of Agriculture has the lead on the file, but obviously the Minister of Natural Resources and I are actively engaged on it and are pushing it hard. I believe in ethanol, particularly cellulosic ethanol. It's very exciting. I'd like to make a big investment in the riding of Ottawa South.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Are you finished, Mr. Vellacott?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Yes.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You didn't hear all the great things I was saying about Ottawa South and Iogen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Chairman, if you'll allow me, thank you. It's nice to have the minister here today.

Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, on December 21 you received a letter from the CEO of the Toronto Stock Exchange, Mr. Richard Nesbitt. It was a ten-page memo, in fact, in which he pleaded with you to keep Canada in the international emissions trading system for several reasons: first, because it will lower the cost of compliance for Canadian companies, Canadian emitters; second, because it will lower global greenhouse gas emissions; third, because it will help Canada to participate immediately in the global carbon trading system, in the market; and fourth, because Canada's market alone is too small.

So you've been forewarned on this issue by Mr. Nesbitt, CEO of the Toronto Stock Exchange, and every expert on climate change or on emissions trading that this committee or the Bill C-30 committee has heard from has told us it would be foolish, in fact, for Canada to withdraw and not take part in the global carbon market.

Just hours ago, the Prime Minister ruled out completely Canada's participation in international emissions trading systems. You just said you're considering participating in the clean development mechanism under Kyoto. How can you participate in something the Prime Minister has ruled out?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

First of all, you say I received a letter on December 21. On December 21, I was the President of the Treasury Board and I was sleeping in a tent in the desert in Afghanistan, so I don't recall receiving such a letter.

I do know the Toronto Stock Exchange would very much like us to be involved in the international trading system, but what's good for Bay Street isn't always good for Main Street. We don't take all of our orders from Bay Street.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

But if you say you're going to take part in the clean development mechanism under Kyoto, how do you do that when the Prime Minister has just ruled it out?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Earlier in the committee meeting, I think I said I see the hot air credits in Russia—or in Ukraine, I suppose—the international trading system, and CDMs as three different things. We've made no decision with respect to clean development mechanisms. Only a very modest amount is available to the entire world.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

What will the cost be to Canadian companies if Canada is not trading, if they're not able to trade internationally? You know about Mr. Nesbitt—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll come forward with our industrial regulation package.

I have spoken with some people in other countries on this issue who say that with this market, it will go to the cheapest available option to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, wherever that option may be in the world. It's not all about that. It's about reducing greenhouse gases. It's also about cleaner air and reducing smog and pollution.

It's also about the integrity of those markets. Are they actually reducing greenhouse gas emissions? Some of the suggestions for those markets are shaky.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

But do you understand that the cost of compliance will go up for Canadian companies because you're refusing to take part in international markets?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I acknowledge that it would be a lot easier to send tens of billions of dollars abroad.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You obviously don't understand the system.

Mr. Chairman, if I may, it's going back to what we used to hear from this minister and others in his government. They said climate change wasn't really a problem, that the problem is smog. We all acknowledge that smog is a problem, but we're hearing more and more that the number one environmental challenge we face is in fact climate change. We know the air moves around the world. It doesn't stop at international borders, the borders of any particular country. We know it requires an international effort to combat it.

People understand all of that, so why would you pretend otherwise?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Let me respond.

I believe climate change is the biggest ecological challenge facing the earth for my generation and generations to come. I want to see Canada play a major role domestically and abroad to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

What I do know is that if we spend tens of billions of dollars of taxpayers' money on the other side of the earth, while it would reduce greenhouse gases if there was integrity to the exchange system, it would do zero or close to zero to reduce smog emissions and pollution—whether it's NOx, SOx, particulate matter, or VOCs—here in Canada, because we share the same airshed just with our neighbouring—

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Is the president of Shell wrong, then?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I disagree with the president of Shell. We know the Liberals love to get in bed with big oil. You gave them that big tax break for the oil sands.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Harvey.