Evidence of meeting #56 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was well.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Environmental Specialist, Ernst Environmental Services
Most of the work I do in the oil patch is on cumulative effects, and alarmingly, as our developments are dramatically increasing in Alberta, the mitigation of and assessment of cumulative effects seem to be going down. We seem to be deregulating in Alberta instead of increasing our assessment of these effects.
From the global warming perspective, the leakage of these wells, as well as potential effects on groundwater, the cumulative effects of these shallow zone developments, the unconventional developments, I think could be dire if we don't take better protection.... As Mr. Cline mentioned, a lot of the older wells are being used to commingle and perforate and frac. When they come to do the CBM, they will often come back again and again to perf and frac again and again. The cement in the surface casing as well as the production casing leaks from many different ways. When the cement is setting, if there are air bubbles or gas moving through from the deeper zones, that can create channels. The cement degrades over time. With each one of these perfs and fracs happening, cumulatively, what is the integrity of the cement going to be?
Interestingly, too, on the EUB, the data collection is so behind, and we're increasing the cumulative effects, but we have less knowledge and data collection than we really should have for the groundwater mapping and the baseline testing. For example, in my area the experiments on the CBM happened before the baseline testing, even though this multi-stakeholder committee was saying, “We have to test first. We have to protect the groundwater; it's vital for life.”
It only took pressure through the press before the baseline testing happened. I believe we still would not have baseline testing if a number of concerned Albertans had not gone to the legislature and gone public.
The EUB did a study that just finished in 2006. This is the regulator. They actually said that seven out of seven of the produced water from the coal-bed methane wells had the contaminants that we found in our Rosebud drinking water—the benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, etc., the heavier hydrocarbons—but 11 out of the 12 water wells in the study did not, had no detectable levels. And 10 out of those 12 water wells had no detectable levels of methane, and they were all getting their water from coal. So even though CAPP has stated that 26,000 of our water wells getting coal supposedly have this natural methane, the regulator's very own study found that this was actually not true.
So hopefully, now, with the baseline testing, if we can improve on the testing.... In the baseline testing, for example, Mr. Rota, the industry is not even required to test for heavy metals or the BTAX, these contaminants that could get into drinking water. So right now we're not even able to assess the cumulative effects because the baseline testing standard isn't testing for the right things.
Noon
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you.
They tell me my time is up. I have a lot more questions, but thank you.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
If you could just keep your answers short, members can get all their questions in.
Mr. Lussier.
Noon
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I too would like to acknowledge the presence in this room of a group of Franco-Ontarian students. I believe it is shepherded by my colleague from Gatineau. Welcome to all of you.
My first question is for Mr. Pryce.
I would like to know who decides the make-up of the advisory committee, the MAC.
Noon
Vice-President, Western Canada Operations, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
Thank you.
The multi-stakeholder advisory committee, or MAC, was a group that was put together by the Government of Alberta that consisted of members of the public, members of industry, and members of the government itself. That was the composition of MAC.
Noon
Vice-President, Western Canada Operations, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
There were probably about—and I'm guessing—20 to 25. There were also a number of people who came into and out of the process as issues came up, who have an interest in or an expertise in that kind of an issue.
Noon
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Is your group responsible for appointing some members to the MAC and, if so, how many?
Noon
Vice-President, Western Canada Operations, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
We had been asked to be represented on the committee, and CAPP had, I believe, two or three.
Noon
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Did you ever consider suggesting the names of Ms. Ernst or Mr. Schwartz for this committee?
Noon
Vice-President, Western Canada Operations, Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers
If I may come to that in a moment, I've been corrected on something. CAPP had one member and CSUG, the Canadian Society for Unconventional Gas, had one member.
We left the representation up to the Government of Alberta to make those determinations.
Noon
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Pryce.
Ms. Ernst, did you receive any financial or technical support from farmers or private land owners for testing your wells or did you have to bear the whole cost?
Noon
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Did you have to bear the full cost for testing your water or did you receive any assistance from the industry?
Noon
Environmental Specialist, Ernst Environmental Services
I wish I could speak in French.
My cost so far has been almost $10,000. I had such a good well that I did not have a holding tank. They had to clean out part of my basement and put in these big tanks. That cost $5,000. The government promised in writing to pay me back, but it's more than a year later and they haven't.
The government is doing very minimal testing. In over a year they still have not done comprehensive testing. We have done some of the testing ourselves. The isotopic fingerprinting costs $500 per test. If you don't know what the chemicals are in some of the heavy metals, it could cost many thousands of dollars. And there is no funding.
Some landowners are trying to come up with funding. I know some landowners who wanted to take their cases forward to the government, but they couldn't afford the testing.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
When one does not know what to test for, it can cost every individual hundreds of dollars.
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Mr. Schwartz, you mentioned the spawning habitat of fish. You mentioned whitefish and touladi which migrate from Lake Winnipeg. In your view, does a change in the composition of water or in the smell affect the spawning behaviour of fish?
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
I will repeat. You mentioned touladi and whitefish that spawn near Lake Winnipeg. Could a change in the smell, the colour or composition of the water change the spawning behaviour of fish?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Pine Lake Surface Rights Action Group
Yes. Since we have an unconsolidated zone in the foothills of the Rockies--it's the headwaters of Lake Winnipeg and all the way out to Hudson Bay--we will be changing the composition of the water in the river flows. We have inflow and outflow from the foothills into these river systems.
Does that answer your question, sir?
12:05 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Yes.
Do you have any tests done on surface water that would show concentrations of chemicals such as benzene, toluene, xylene or any other substance used by the industry to dissolve methane?