Environment Committee on June 7th, 2007

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

All right. So my understanding then is that it's to be paid out in instalments of $500 million over the next three years. Is that right?

[Michael Martin]

Mr. Chairman, I would have to defer to the Department of Finance, as I said earlier, in terms of exactly what the technical arrangements are related to the transfer of those funds. They're not handled by Environment Canada; it is a Department of Finance arrangement, and they would be best placed to answer that question.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So you'll get back to us with that information. Can you do that?

[Michael Martin]

We will certainly pass that request on to the Department of Finance, sir, yes.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay.

Has any money flowed yet of the first $500 million? Do you know that?

[Michael Martin]

Mr. Chairman, as I think we stated earlier, these funds are subject to the Budget Implementation Act passage. Again, I would defer to the Department of Finance in terms of exactly what kinds of transactions have taken place up until now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I think we have that request recorded.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

All right.

So let me understand: the way in which these funds will be delivered is by the route of a memorandum of understanding or a contribution agreement.

[Michael Martin]

These funds will be transferred to a trustee. The amounts and the initiatives they are intended to support have been publicly announced. As I said, the trustee arrangements can be described by the Department of Finance, but as I stated earlier, there is no MOU or other contractual arrangement between the federal government and the provinces covering the fund beyond that which is managed through the trustee arrangement.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So the criteria by which certain projects were considered to be allowable were established beforehand, in terms of what was allowable and what wasn't, by the Department of the Environment, which is responsible for this?

[Michael Martin]

Mr. Chairman, to my recollection, when the trust fund was first announced, the Prime Minister laid out, in his public statement, the criteria that would guide the fund. He described its purposes. He described the types of projects that would be supported. In each successive announcement that was done in partnership with each province and territory, the terms and purposes of the fund, and the specific projects that would be potentially supported with these funds, were described. That information is entirely in the public domain.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

To Ms. Ruta, just in terms of accountability, I'm still having a problem understanding this. We just turn over money and the provinces indicate--in general terms or specific terms--which projects the money is going to be allocated to? Do they specify how much money goes to this and how much to that? How do we know in fact that the money is being spent on the proper purpose? Will we have, as we would with a contribution agreement, some kind of an accountability after the fact? How do we make sure that's transparent?

[Basia Ruta]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this question really needs to go to the Department of Finance. The money is not flowing through Environment Canada. I'm not in a position to provide more details in terms of the instrument in addition to the checks and balances, from a program design perspective, that would accompany that.

Generally speaking, with the transfer of funds there are--perhaps embedded in the memorandum of understanding--certain technical requirements. Again, however, this would have to be for the Department of Finance to respond to.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So let me understand this: the Department of the Environment has no supervisory accountability function in this? You've just turned it over to the Department of Finance, as would be the case with a program where there was a contribution agreement or a memorandum of understanding? I don't understand the role of the department, which is in charge of the environment, in making sure that the job gets done, or that the criteria are followed, or that there are proper outcomes.

[Basia Ruta]

Generally speaking, as I understand it, there are many departments involved in dealing with environmental issues. As I mentioned before, with the clean air regulatory framework and clean air measures on climate change, Environment Canada has been tasked to coordinate, if you like, information on results being achieved, and to do a challenge and report back periodically. The results would also be made available in the public domain.

Up until now, many departments have spent money. The accountability flows through to the ministers, to the deputy ministers of those organizations, and cascades down. My colleagues--for example, my counterpart at Finance Canada, the chief financial officer--would also be doing their checks and balances, if you like, in terms of the spending that happens.

So it's more than just Environment Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Godfrey.

We'll go to Mr. Harvey, please.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

First of all, thank you for being here today.

In September 2006, we met with the Environment Commissioner, Ms. Gélinas, who had come to explain to us that 6.3 billion dollars has been announced since 1997. In September 2006, she was still having difficulty determining the effectiveness of that and, more importantly, how much money had been spent and how much was still available. The previous government had gotten us used to sometimes losing track of certain amounts of money.

I would like to know if this money has been retraced and where we are at with regard to these 6.3 billion dollars.

[Basia Ruta]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, the Environment Commissioner had prepared a document. It is correct to say that there were commitments for approximately 6 billion dollars. I believe that she had indicated that between 1997 and 2003, close to 4 billion dollars—3.740 to be precise—had been expended for climate change initiatives.

As far as determining the scope of the expenditures made in 2004-05, as I mentioned earlier, it is quite an exercise to gather all of the information from all of the departments. This is not information I have here. I think that I noted some gap in that regard. Prospectively, Environment Canada will be coordinating the gathering of this information in order to be able to report the amounts in a timely fashion.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Given the fact that approximately 4 of the 7 billion dollars were spent between 1997 and 2003, and that there was a major increase in CO2 emissions, has any quantitative evaluation been done so as to determine if the money was spent effectively?

[Basia Ruta]

The only thing I can say—and I would ask my colleagues, Mr. Martin and Mr. Manson to comment—is that the government undertook in 2005 and 2006, a review of all of the initiatives aimed at climate change.

As was mentioned during Mr. Martin's opening remarks at the beginning of this meeting, the government had abolished certain programs and re-established others. This is a way of getting an overall picture of the various initiatives at play. If my memory serves me right, there were a great many programs, more than 100.

As for Environment Canada, we are but one part of a whole. Mr. Martin will add to what I have just said in order to give you a government-wide perspective.

[Michael Martin]

Mr. Chair, just to add, in terms of specific programs, of course there are criteria on effectiveness of programs that are developed when those programs are implemented. It's difficult to speak in general terms about the effectiveness of specific programs.

In terms of this government, as I stated at the outset, the new programming that has been announced is intended to be targeted and to complement the regulatory agenda of the government. We believe the program suite now in place will effectively contribute to reducing greenhouse gases and air pollution over the coming years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, in order to fully understand your respective roles, Madam Ruta, I would like to know what your duties are. I would like to know what your role is in the department.

[Basia Ruta]

I am Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

It would not be an error to state that all of the expenses go through your office.