Environment Committee on June 12th, 2007

[Dr. Richard Carignan]

I don't know about the Swiss example in detail, but I do know that phosphorous is banned in most domestic products, as it is as well in a number of American states.

We know—and I'm speaking as a scientist—that, in the lakes in the Laurentians, there is a direct link between the presence of phosphorous, eutrophication problems and the density of housing around the lakes. We must try to see what may be contributing to this situation. When you have a dwelling near a lake, what can contribute to the presence of phosphorous? It's obviously the septic facility and a host of other causes, but the phosphorous in detergents is a possible source that can easily be eliminated. Problems will take more time to solve, but it seems to me that prohibiting phosphorous, phosphates in all domestic products is a goal we could quite easily achieve and that certain American states have already achieved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Carey, I believe you have a response--very briefly, please.

[John Carey]

I want to clarify that we're talking about phosphates in automatic dishwasher products, not in the liquid products you use for hand washing. The liquid products used for hand washing do not contain phosphates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you.

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Let me preface this by saying it feels like we are unfortunately having to rush through a topic that might need a little more investigation by this committee.

I have a question for Mr. Carey about the statistics he presented to us for 1996. Is there anything more recent that the government is aware of on these loads?

[John Carey]

There's nothing that we've rolled up at a national level.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is there any interest by the government? Are there working plans to do such a thing?

[John Carey]

There are none that I'm aware of right now. We are focusing on the agricultural sector as our priority.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm asking because it seems that in order to manage the thing we have to measure the thing, and these numbers are more than a decade old.

Mr. Friesen, you touched on almost the concept of ecological services, that a certain service is being done for the ecology, and farmers want to do their part. I think you hinted at compensation of some kind or another. Is that compensation to help mitigate the impacts of phosphorus that leaks into our water system? What specifically do you think your members are looking for?

[Bob Friesen]

That certainly could be part of it. In the ecological goods and services strategy we've developed, we talk about things like more buffer zones, management, and best management practices.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To be specific, are farmers being paid to do these things?

[Bob Friesen]

Incentive-based programs help farmers do what they could otherwise not afford to do, and provide a service to the greater good.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have a last point, to pick up on Mr. Carey's comment on the road salt and fertilizer equation. Some gap has been identified--as Mr. Scarpaleggia was asking about--in the ability to do a proper investigation on the effects of phosphates in our ecosystem. What's the technical thing that the government is lacking at this point? What does it have to initiate to make this happen?

[John Carey]

I'm not sure.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You very briefly answered Mr. Scarpaleggia's last question about road salts being presented as a concern.

[John Carey]

My answer was related to the fact that within the government's tool bag are a number of things that can be done, short of banning something outright, to manage risks. That's what was done with road salts. The government did not ban road salts; road salts save people's lives in winter.

The government developed management practices to reduce the risks, while still continuing to use them and save people's lives. That's the risk management aspect of it. That's what these beneficial management practices and their adoption are meant to do. They're encouraged to be adopted through farm stewardship programs and incentive programs. They're meant to manage the risks, not eliminate the use of the substance.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I understand. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too appreciate the witnesses being here. It's a very interesting and important topic. I agree that more discussion is needed, and there's an unfortunate rush today.

Mr. Carey, in your comments you said that dishwasher detergent was approximately 1% of the source of the problem.

[John Carey]

Those were our 1996 numbers. Dr. Watson actually had some statistics with respect to dishwashers that indicate that it's probably gone up by 50% since then. So if nothing else has changed, it would now be 1.5% of the problem.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned the substitute, which is nitrilotriacetic acid..

[John Carey]

NTA, yes.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Could you elaborate on the effects of that acid on the environment? Is it as effective as phosphates? As you said, we need to reach a balance. What are the effects of that acid?

[John Carey]

As I understand it, NTA was screened in for further assessment during the recent exercise based on human health effects, not on environmental effects. The concern there was that it could degrade to carcinogenic compounds.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Is it as effective as a component in cleaning compounds?