Evidence of meeting #64 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Carignan  Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Dave McCartney  Manager, Wastewater and Drainage Service, City of Ottawa, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
Bob Friesen  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
John Carey  Director General, Water Science and Technology, National Water Research Institute
Christine Melnick  Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba
Dwight Williamson  Director, Water Science and Management Branch, Water Stewardship Department, Government of Manitoba
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

12:30 p.m.

Director General, Water Science and Technology, National Water Research Institute

John Carey

I think it was suggested in the seventies that it was not as effective, so the concentration of NTA in detergents initially--in the late seventies, if memory serves--was as much as 25% by weight. I don't know that it's still used now. I think there are a variety of other things--silicates and citric acid and things like that--that we used in its place because of the concerns that were raised at that time.

The point is that we need to know what the substitute would be before we know that we're moving in the right direction--whatever the substitute is in this case. I don't know what it is in this case.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

So if dishwasher soap is a source of maybe 1% or 1.5% of the problem, where should the main focus be to solve the problem?

12:30 p.m.

Director General, Water Science and Technology, National Water Research Institute

John Carey

Well, our focus has been on trying to work on reducing the non-point source contributions from agriculture, because those are the largest sources that we know of, by far.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to our guests.

Again, I'm really sorry for how short it was. The committee may decide that they want to go further on this. So thank you very much.

We'll suspend for a moment here. I'd ask these witness to leave. We have one more witness.

Thank you.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I would like to welcome our next witness, Ms. Melnick.

Certainly, welcome to our committee. Again, as with the others, I apologize for the rush, but I'm sure you understand the vote situation and how it goes.

Basically, I would ask you to keep your presentation as brief as you can, and with the time left, we will let members have an opportunity to question.

Ideally, it's going to look like roughly one major question per four of you, and then we have the motion by Mr. Bigras to deal with at the end.

If you'd like to begin, please go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

Christine Melnick Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

First, I'd like to thank the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development for allowing me to appear this morning. It's a very important issue, of course, that you are referring to today.

I have brought with me a copy of the final report of the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board. I'll leave it with the clerk. We are having it translated into French as well. And I have French and English copies of the press release we sent out when I released the report a few months ago.

I'm going to start very quickly, then I want to get into the questions.

Water, of course, is very important to all Manitobans, to all Canadians. Manitoba is home to three of Canada's largest lakes, including Lake Winnipeg, which is Canada's sixth Great Lake and the world's tenth largest freshwater lake.

Lake Winnipeg is situated wholly within the borders of Manitoba. It covers about 25,000 square kilometres. However, the drainage of the watershed is nearly one million square kilometres. There are parts of the drainage basin in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, and of course, Manitoba, as well as in the four states of Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Minnesota.

Lake Winnipeg is unique among great lakes in the world because it has the largest ratio of surface area to drainage basin. For every one square kilometre of lake surface there are 40 kilometres of drainage basin, and this speaks to the prairies--the flat, wide expanses of land.

The three major watersheds that drain into Lake Winnipeg are the Winnipeg River, coming from Ontario; the Saskatchewan River, coming from the Rocky Mountains in Alberta through Saskatchewan; and the Red River, which comes from North Dakota and other states in the south.

We are experiencing cultural eutrophication, which means that through human activity we are getting regular algae blooms. Lake Winnipeg is home to over 30 communities situated around its nearly 2,000 kilometres of shoreline. We have a very large inland commercial fishery industry that has an annual catch of 55 million a year. There are also world-class beaches, which of course bring tourism.

Scientific studies in Manitoba indicate that the loading of nitrogen and phosphorus in Lake Winnipeg has increased by over 10% since the early 1970s, and unless we make changes throughout the entire watershed, we will see this escalate.

Since 1999, we as the Manitoba government have taken several actions that we feel are quite significant. However, there is more to do.

We launched the Lake Winnipeg action plan in February 2003. The focus of this action plan was to begin the process of reducing nutrient loads in Lake Winnipeg to pre-1970s levels. As part of this action plan, the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board was created.

We then passed the Water Protection Act, which gave us a strong new framework to guide the management of water quality and quantity. This act allowed the nutrient management regulation to come into law. Extensive consultations have been done on this regulation with all the stakeholders, and shortly we will be bringing it into force. It provides limitations on the amounts of nitrogen and phosphorus that can be applied to Manitoba's landscape, and for the first time in Canada, it will apply to nutrients from both animal manure and synthetic fertilizer. We've also established buffer zones and sensitive areas where nutrients cannot be applied.

With the assistance of the federal government, through the International Joint Commission's International Red River Board, we have reached an agreement with North Dakota and Minnesota that will see us reduce cross-border contributions of nutrients to Lake Winnipeg by 10% over five years. We have heavily invested in requiring nutrient reductions at waste water treatment facilities in our province's major cities.

The Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board, which presented its final report recently, outlined 135 recommendations in 38 areas in which to take action. We have accepted them in principle, and in fact, we have already acted on 84% of the recommendations. The board has been given a new mandate. It is to ensure that cross-border linkages will restore the health of Lake Winnipeg. And we have established a federal-provincial Lake Winnipeg action plan implementation committee that will report to the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board.

I was very pleased that both the federal Minister of the Environment and the federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans have agreed to participate in this committee through their staff.

To end the problem in Lake Winnipeg we need sound science. We established a science subcommittee that will serve to meet the needs of the Lake Winnipeg Stewardship Board and other committees as needed.

Again, we are pleased that there is support from the federal level as well as participation from Ontario and, through the Prairie Provinces Water Board, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Since 1999 Manitoba has contributed and committed about $130 million to new water and waste water treatment infrastructure. On November 8, 2006, among other actions, Manitoba placed a pause on new and expanding hog barns and engaged our Clean Environment Commission in a review of this sector to ensure that it was environmentally sustainable.

While much has been accomplished, there is more to do, and we must collectively work to keep moving forward. Strong Canada-Manitoba linkages are needed. I'll go through some specific areas that I hope we will make real progress on.

One is implementing basin-wide watershed management. As I mentioned, the Lake Winnipeg watershed covers four provinces and four states. I am hoping that we will have the sort of support we need at the federal level as well as interprovincially to be able to cut down the loading of nutrients into our water.

We must continue to build on science. Science, of course, is an ever-changing and ever-developing area, and we must be open to what our new knowledge will teach us.

There is a need to develop and implement new Canada-wide policies and regulations to reduce the phosphorus content of cleaning products such as dishwasher detergents. While significant success was achieved by federal actions in the 1970s to reduce the phosphorus content of laundry detergents to help protect Lake Erie and the other Great Lakes, significant amounts of phosphorus are still contained in many other new household cleaning products such as dishwasher detergents.

It is now time to repeat the successes of the 1970s with laundry detergents by reducing phosphorus in other cleaning products. A strong federal approach in this area could possibly come under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. This way, we would have Canada-wide regulations creating cost-effective solutions not only for Manitoba, but for all of Canada.

It's important to note when we look at the Lake Winnipeg watershed that what goes into detergent in a dishwasher in Edmonton finds its way into Lake Winnipeg. That gives you a sense of how vast and broad our catchment is and how important it is to work collectively.

There have been many successes through the agricultural policy framework. We have certainly seen a lot of benefit from the beneficial management practices, and we know local producers in Manitoba are very pleased and very happy to be working with this program.

Finally, there is a need to significantly increase federal-provincial investments in enhanced municipal waste water treatment. We hope that this will be done to provide consistent levels of tertiary treatment across the country to reduce contributions of nitrogen and phosphorus to our waterways.

I'd like to bring my opening remarks to a close by recognizing the children from grade 2 to grade 6 in Lakewood elementary school. Just last week I received a package of several hundred pieces of art and written letters asking me to take care of Lake Winnipeg. With this hope also came the concern that their collective pleas to governments would not be heard. I want to assure those children and all of our children in Manitoba that their pleas have been heard.

I think that when we look into the eyes of our children collectively, we know what our task is. By working together, we will achieve that for them and all future generations.

Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you very much.

I would ask members to ask their questions very briefly, please.

Mr. Regan.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I can recall visiting the Freshwater Institute in Winnipeg a few years ago and seeing a photograph of Lake Winnipeg taken in summer with a huge algae bloom, which of course was very disconcerting.

As the chairman has told me to move quickly, let me turn to the question of reducing versus eliminating phosphates, for example, in dishwasher detergent. You talked about reducing. First, why not eliminate, in your view; and secondly, reducing to what levels?

12:45 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

I think we have to work collectively on this. We have consumers. We have producers. What we don't want to do is throw an industry into shock. I think we can establish limitations, we can establish reductions, we can establish a clear path that will see real results.

I'm very encouraged by the fact that I've been lobbying my local Safeway for a number of years to carry these products, and lo and behold, one day I walked in and they were there. So I think consumer demand is a real driver, and I know that more and more people will become vocal.

We will have an education program going throughout Manitoba this summer about ways individuals can reduce and can be a part of the result.

So of course we'd like to get to a place where there is a reduction sufficient to not cause any more harm. To get there, I think we have to work collectively. The government in Manitoba works in consultation and tries to get agreement around the table. That's how I would hope we would work nationally as well.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you.

Mr. Lussier.

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Melnick, you mentioned that you hoped to see changes in federal regulations. Are phosphate emissions provincially regulated? Are there municipal regulations in Manitoba?

12:45 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

This summer we'll be having an education campaign on that reduction. We will begin consultations in the fall on cosmetic fertilizers as well as household products. To my knowledge, we don't have regulation in Manitoba, other than in Brandon.

I have had a very positive discussion with the federal minister, who I will be meeting later this afternoon as well, and I've said that Manitoba would be very happy to lead the way across Canada, working with our federal government. We're happy to work on a national level with the federal government, but we're also working within our provincial boundaries on this.

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Does Canada have good control over the quality of phosphorous coming from the American states on the Red River? I know there is an International Joint Commission agreement with Minnesota and North Dakota. Do we have good control at the border for determining the amount of phosphorous entering Canada?

12:50 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

The monitoring, yes. The control we'd like to have more of, but again in a cooperative way.

Contrary to a lot of the headlines you might read, there is a lot of cooperation between Manitoba and the states just south of us. So I think we need to continue to build on that.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you.

Mr. Cullen.

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I'm sorry the time is so short.

These are basin transfers, so as you said, someone in Edmonton puts this in their dishwasher and it ends up in Lake Winnipeg. When dealing with the new threat of interbasin transfers, and specifically what has happened with Devils Lake.... This committee has dealt with it before. Just for the committee's reference, these are the photos of the new out-flow. Are there concerns? Are there no concerns? Is it part of the thinking in terms of the management of this issue for Lake Winnipeg now that Dakota is transferring water from one basin to an entirely new one?

12:50 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

The situation with the dishwasher is that Edmonton is part of the Lake Winnipeg basin, so there isn't an interbasin transfer. I think you're referring to the situation happening now with Devils Lake in North Dakota, where they began to pump water out of Devils Lake into the Sheyenne River, which will make its way into Lake Winnipeg. There's incredible concern around that, grave concern around that.

On August 5, 2005, the federal governments of Canada and the U.S. signed an agreement that there would be an advanced filter put in place so that water, if it had to be pumped—Manitoba's position is one drop is too much—then at least it would be going through a filter. No system is completely fail-safe, but we need to take whatever actions are possible.

We know that there are grave concerns. There's biota that is foreign to the Lake Winnipeg watershed that may be going in now. I'm here and I'll be meeting with the federal minister later. I'm going to ask him to step up the pace of working towards the placement of this advanced filter.

I'm also concerned that in the United States the federal government delegated, through the Environmental Protection Agency, the ability of North Dakota to establish their own environmental standards around the water. We have, through agreement with the International Joint Commission, a limit of 300 milligrams per litre of sulphates. Water could only be pumped if there were less than 300 milligrams per litre of sulphates from the Devils Lake area into the Sheyenne. Through the Department of Health in North Dakota, they have upped that amount to 450 milligrams with no visible science behind it. So we did challenge this. Unfortunately, we did lose the challenge in North Dakota, so we're looking at our next steps.

Again, I will be asking the federal minister today to talk to his counterpart in the States, for the federal government in the States to take back that power from North Dakota so that any change would be based on real science.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Vellacott.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

It was touched on already, but you talked in terms of reductions in the phosphates in the dishwashing detergents. You mentioned your own local store example there. Do you talk in terms of reductions because you have a concern they're still researching and tracking some of the implications of the substitutes, the alternatives? Do we know enough about some of these substitutes that they would be bringing on, or already are? Do we know long-term implications for that?

And then, I guess, I have a second follow-up question in this as well.

12:50 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

Okay. That's more of a technical question, and I'll ask Dwight Williamson, who is our executive director of water resources in the department of water stewardship, to respond to you.

June 12th, 2007 / 12:50 p.m.

Dwight Williamson Director, Water Science and Management Branch, Water Stewardship Department, Government of Manitoba

We do think that where there are practical alternatives to phosphorus elimination should be the goal. But just as it was dealt with in laundry detergents, there was a reduction, not a complete elimination. So if the technology is there and if there are safe substitutes, then it makes abundant good sense to move to elimination. But if that's not the case, then clearly reductions are in order as a first starting point.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK

Thanks.

I notice you say “if”, as a qualified science person and so on here, meaning that they're still looking at that issue, I assume, and maybe why we should have a bit of caution.

The other question I wanted to ask the minister in terms of the report is this—and it looks like some lengthy and extensive work was done here. You deal with all the issues, and some take less than others and you get a greater return, but what percentage of the efforts have been centred around the issue of the dishwasher detergent phosphates compared to the whole picture? There are other factors, such as agriculture and the other types of things. So 1.5% is what we're told here, at least, is one of the figures now that may be part of the problem. Would it be 1.5% in, or 5%, or a disproportionate amount into that, or what?

12:55 p.m.

Minister, Water Stewardship, Government of Manitoba

Christine Melnick

We have developed a multi-source way of dealing with this. When you're dealing with Lake Winnipeg it's quite different from dealing with, for example, Lake Erie in the seventies, where there were two points: largely, the two points were laundry detergent and waste water treatment. We have a lot of agricultural development. We have a lot of animal husbandry. We have cottagers. We have waste water treatment plants. We have interjurisdictional issues. So our numbers are about the same as yours as far as the issue of the detergents that we're talking about today goes, but we believe that each point counts and each point makes a difference.

It took us about 30 years to get to where we are in Lake Winnipeg. It's going to take a while to get back. But we believe, with everyone doing their part, slowly but surely we'll start to slow down the current progress, and eventually we'll get to a point where we can reverse it. But we all have to work together on that.