Environment Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Were you sworn in, Mr. Johnson?

[Pierre Marc Johnson]

In my case, it's serment d'office. I don't know, maybe my other colleagues were, but in my case, it's serment d'office because of my previous position. When I have access to secret documents of cabinet, I keep them for myself and whatever happened after that.

Secondly, on the other questions, yes, I did hear about some domestic concern about the minister at some point. I know some of his energy was accaparé by this at some point, but I can tell you that it did not come up in our meetings. We didn't discuss it. I actually heard about it from one of his staffers. He did not volunteer any comments on it.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Johnson, you talked about the G-8+5 , Gleneagles +5, Indonesia, South Korea, Australia, the Bali road map, and you basically said that in your view it is more beneficial for Canada to pursue that route while maintaining a watching brief over the United Nations negotiations.

The government's statements to the G-8+5 have been perfectly consistent that there shall be no hard targets, calling for aspirational targets. Those speeches have been given on the floor of the UN, they've been given at the meetings of the G-8+5. Do you think that this is—

[An hon. member]

That's not true.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It's not true? I'm sorry. I read the Prime Minister's speech to the floor of the United Nations, and he talked about aspirational targets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Maybe there, but not at the G-8+5.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Can you comment on that question of aspirational targets?

Furthermore, in Bali, was there another single nation-state that has unilaterally changed the terms and conditions of the international treaty called Kyoto, the protocol that attaches to the UNFCCC, by changing the baseline from 1990 to 2006 and announcing publicly that we shall not even attempt to meet our targets? Has any other nation-state done so?

[Pierre Marc Johnson]

On your second question, I do not know. I haven't heard about it, so maybe it's because there isn't one.

On the first question, may I submit modestly, Mr. Chairman, to this committee that the real question is how to get China and India in. It's a matter of being pragmatic.

We know that humanity will not be able to face climate change other than by adaptation if the major economies do not participate in limitations of emissions. We know that. So you start from there.

How do we get there? I think the Bali process is indeed important, but at the same time it would be a huge mistake not to use the MEM process to go forward. It's a form that is much more amenable, I think, to making strides at this point in time, and that can be remarkably useful for Bali. Hopefully what will happen in Japan, then further in Italy next year, and eventually in Canada in 2010, will bring the world forward on these issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you.

Mr. Warawa, please.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

When the members of the committee asked for the costs incurred by Environment Canada for the eminent advisers to go to COP 13 in Bali, I then asked for that. That figure was provided today for the members. The total was $44,252.

In the spirit of being transparent and open, I also asked for the cost of having opposition members go to COP 12. For Mr. Godfrey from the Liberals, Mr. Bigras from the Bloc, and Mr. Cullen from the NDP, it was $53,000. I was very pleased with the results of having eminent advisers advise the minister, particularly after what happened at COP 12, at which there were vicious attacks from some members of the opposition against the government. We've heard that is not the norm.

So, Chair, I would like to get back on the.... This is in response to some questions and comments from Mr. McGuinty. I would like to ask Mr. Johnson and Mr. Morton about the continued comments on the importance of achieving greenhouse gas emission reductions globally. The environment does not respect politics that we see here in Canada or any other country. Emissions will go up if we continue to increase our emissions; for them to come down globally, the world has to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions.

Mr. Johnson, you've been involved with this for years, and your recommendation was the G-8+5 as a post-Kyoto. What part do you see Kyoto playing in the post-2012 situation?

[Pierre Marc Johnson]

Well, Kyoto will be the important reference for fast-developing countries pushing under the argument of equity, and the argument of equity is fundamental. These countries tell us that in 150 years of industrial revolution, you created the problem, we didn't, so why should we now pay for your problem? That's called Kyoto.

When you look at the facts and the projections of emissions in the next 20 years, concentrations of carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide equivalent will peak at more than what is souhaitable, and then we'll have to come to stabilization at 450 parts per million. It's going to take everybody's cooperation to get there, and we're at the very beginning, parodoxically, of this process. When you look at the curves and at the difference between the demand and the offer of liquid fuels, you see that's going to be conducive to going to coal. You can see the numbers in the next 20 years. It's frightening.

We have to be credible, but also we all have to be there, and we have to take the means to get there together.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I'd love to hear from Mr. Morton. I think I still have a couple of minutes left--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

No, you have about 30 seconds.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Well, I think Mr. Bigras would like to have a couple of words.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Yes, he would. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I would like to take this opportunity to tell the government that it can rest assured that I will be in Copenhagen, and get there on my own steam, as has already been done in the past by our party. We shouldered our responsibilities, we were there.

There is one thing I would like to say: I do not want to defend the Liberals, but all of the previous environment ministers, and I have been a member since 1997, from Mr. Anderson to Ms. Stewart, and even the former prime minister, had the decency to invite members of the opposition along on each occasion, and that was done out of mutual respect.

So, when the opposition is being charged with wanting to torpedo the government, that is completely false. We are acting responsibly, on the opposition side. Perhaps we can also mention that we represent the majority in Parliament and believe that the opinion we have defended internationally, from Nairobi to Bali, is one that is shared by most Quebeckers and Canadians. No government will be able to stop opposition members, parliamentarians, from attending international conferences. We will be there next time. If we have to denounce our government, we will do that.

That was my only comment on this matter. We are now anticipating tomorrow's budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I'm not sure how our guests would answer that question.

Mr. McGuinty is next, on a point of order.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

On a point of order, we've received copies of letters on Environment Canada letterhead appointing Dr. Johnson and three other participants on this eminent persons panel. The clerk tells me he's been assured by the minister's staff person that the original invitations were sent out by e-mail. There is no date on this letter.

I request, and would like to see here by the next meeting, the original e-mails that were sent to the four eminent persons with the proper dates on them. I'd like to know for sure when these invitation letters were sent out, because I don't believe that a letter would be sent out in paper form without proper dating. You do not appoint anyone in the Government of Canada—I know this is a form of deputy minister equivalent—even as a participant in a meeting like this without salary or consulting fees, without clear beginning and ending dates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We'll make that request.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'd like confirmation that we're going to get the original e-mails that were sent to the four members by the next meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Okay, we'll request them. We've been assured by the member that we'll get them.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

That's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I'd like to thank both of our witnesses. You can see that we're a very friendly group and we get along very well. I've enjoyed this because of my long participation in it, so thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.