Evidence of meeting #15 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bali.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
But the piñata, I think, was the media, not the opposition MPs.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
No, I didn't talk about the opposition MPs; I talked about the NGOs. What was said was that in Nairobi someone in the NGO groups did not abide by the usual rule about discretion on briefings with officials and ministers; that's all.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
The decision not to take opposition MPs to Bali seemed nothing to do...is totally unprecedented, without—
5:05 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
Yes, I'm unaware of it.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
I'm going to give the questions back to Mr. McGuinty, but in terms of Stéphane Dion's presentation there, you said he was viewed as an expert and that it was a substantial presentation. Can you just explain why, then, you are saying he's wearing two hats? I guess my view would be that Stéphane Dion was speaking on behalf of his opinion of what's best for the planet.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
That's what Monsieur Dion did in that forum. In that side event, indeed, he talked about the process from Montreal to Copenhagen and some of the issues that would come up in the process. But I also saw Monsieur Dion giving interviews on television, to Radio-Canada and others, in which there was no doubt in my mind that it was the leader of the opposition speaking. I always understood, having myself been a leader of the opposition where I come from, that the first job of a leader of the opposition is to try to replace the man who's the prime minister, and I guess that obeys other types of rules than talking in general terms to a general audience in the UN.
That's what I'm saying. With all the respect I have for Monsieur Dion, whom I know quite well as a colleague in different things through our lives, Monsieur Dion, I wanted to state, was not disruptive in front of the conference about Canada. But at the same time, I believe he had a couple of things in mind when he was talking to Canadian journalists.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
No, I was not. Monsieur Dion did not invite me to that.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
Thank you.
I have questions for Mr. Johnson initially, and our guest by remote, as well.
This mention of the very strong criticisms by some of the NGOs coming out of Nairobi may be somewhat unprecedented in respect to the minister. My understanding is that it's not customary, not normal. You can respond on that.
I've been a member of Parliament for eleven years, and I've travelled on some overseas delegations and so on. In your vast experience as a premier of a province and knowing the proper process and protocol, is it customary when you go off to these international events as opposition members to be critiquing the government and having these split positions and so on? It's something that seems to me to be novel--different, certainly. I'd appreciate your response to that. With respect to Mr. Dion going off and presenting a position...I don't know that it's customary for that to happen. I guess that's my question.
First to Mr. Johnson.
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
We often see, especially in the parliamentary system, but the U.S. also does it, that members of the opposition are invited to attend these meetings. From what I've seen, but I haven't seen everything, usually the rule is that they're there to be informed of what's going on. And usually there's a minimal transposition of domestic issues in the international forum, even with the local domestic press. Even though I was not in Nairobi, I saw its impacts in the papers here. I was struck by the fact that Canada looked profoundly divided, when I looked at the papers two years ago. That was unusual, because I'd often seen delegations with members of the opposition and that image never came back. I'm not saying this came from the members of Parliament who were there, but obviously the NGO community had a lot to say.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
When I've been on delegations overseas--and maybe I've been too polite--I was always to some degree deferential to the prevailing Liberal government position of the day. I sometimes choked on it, but whatever--
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
That's the right word. There's a certain “deference” that is given to the government position. I think that's usually how it works. When people come back, then they hit it off in Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
Oh, sure. Obviously.
I'm just saying that it seemed different and rather irregular, if you will, from my more limited experience compared to yours.
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
It's less usual.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
Less usual, yes.
As I said, it doesn't seem to represent and portray the country well. I think it looks bad on the country. Come back and argue all you want within your boundaries--that has been more my understanding of it.
5:10 p.m.
Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
I don't have any comments on that question.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Vellacott.
If I could, just briefly, I can't resist, simply because of having been involved so many times and been to so many COP meetings, and of course having been in Johannesburg and having an opportunity to talk to Mr. Chrétien about what he was about to do, then having the opportunity to come back and give my position as to what I felt back here in Canada, in Parliament.
I want to also add that Mr. Wilfert and I spent this past week in Brazil. Three of those days were in Brasilia, talking about the G-8+5, because Brazil is one of those, and about the next meeting in Japan, where we will be sending that final communiqué--it's a three-year process that Tony Blair set up. These communiqués are worked on months and months in advance. There are hyphenated parts, and on the last day it's usually one inch of hyphenated part that's being debated; the rest has been agreed to. I know you've been there, Mr. Johnson, many times. That's how it goes.
I think, really, where it's at is that as discussed this past week, carbon capture and storage is what the world is really counting on. It's what those G-8+5 members and the European Union are really counting on. And the emphasis we should put on that.... That's 76% of the emissions. If those 13 countries don't get onside and do something, we're in big trouble. Of course, we're one of those countries, and I can say that I think we're going to play a really big role in that area. That's something you brought up, and I just think the members should realize just how significant a role.... We have a great opportunity to be leaders. Whether we get there or not I don't know, but we have a great huge opportunity as Canadians, collectively. I would love to see this whole committee agree that these are the solutions, let's work on them together to come up with that achievement. That would be a huge thing for this environment committee to achieve. I hope we can think about that.
What I would like to do now is go to Mr. McGuinty, then to Mr. Warawa, and that should pretty well take our time. And Mr. Bigras for a couple of minutes, because we do have to be out of this room at 5:30, as I mentioned at the start.
Mr. McGuinty, sharp questions, five minutes.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Johnson and Mr. Morton, I apologize for the questions I have to put to you. I have to put to you some fairly straight-shooting questions, and I need fairly quick answers.
I will say, as the official opposition critic, that I do not accept that the four eminent persons who attended the meeting in Bali should come to this committee and tell the committee that they're not in a position to tell us what they advised the minister. There is no pecuniary contractual relationship here. I have in front of me the letters of appointments, Dr. Johnson and Mr. Morton. There is no, as you say, payment. There is no lawyer-client or solicitor privilege. You're not public servants who are bound by the Public Service Act. I don't accept for a moment that you're not in a position to tell the Canadian public. This trip cost $45,000. That's $10,000 more than the average income in my home province of Ontario this year.
What I would like to know is, have you provided any written advice or have you been asked to provide a written report to the minister on the $45,000 it cost to have you participate in Bali?
This committee's job is to hold the government to account.
5:15 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Okay.
I just think it's important for Canadians to know that the government is not prepared to let us know what advice the panellists have provided to it. I'm not sure why the panellists are not prepared to share with Canadians, who have paid for their participation, what actually happened there. That's my first point I want to get on the record.
My second point, Dr. Johnson, is a more difficult point. Were you aware of the fact that while you were in Bali the minister was on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen, not once, but on two consecutive days, linked to a bribery case here with the city of Ottawa's mayor? Were you aware of that--on major headlines, the upper and lower folds? Did you see or hear anything about that discussion during your time in Bali?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. Johnson, I think you can decide if you want to answer that. That's going a little further than our mandate here.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Senior Advisor to the Minister of Environment, the Hon. John Baird, for the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Conference (Bali - December 2007), As an Individual
First of all, Mr. McGuinty, I had access to secret cabinet documentation in the exchanges with the minister. In these circumstances I'm not going to reveal one word of what happened with the minister because of that, unless he himself said something publicly. That explains why I'm not going to go further on that.
Secondly—