Evidence of meeting #23 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Normand Radford

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Order, please.

As everybody knows, we are on clause 10 as amended. We passed the amendment; we are now on to the full clause, clause 10.

(On clause 10--Minister's statement)

Mr. Warawa.

April 1st, 2008 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Chair, I've read clause 10 again and again. Mr. Cullen had requested that we make some amendments. I think we've made it very clear that I have great difficulty with Bill C-377 as it's written and as it's been amended to this point. I don't believe the concerns that have been raised by the witnesses have been addressed to this point; therefore, in the spirit of goodwill, I would like to move a subamendment.

Clause 10 begins under—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

This would be an amendment now. We've dealt with the amendment and passed it, so this now would be an amendment.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

An amendment. Thank you very much.

Subclause 10(1) says, “On or before May 31 of each year, the Minister shall”. I would be—

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Do you have this in writing for us?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

I don't; I'm sorry. I can pass on this copy to you in just one moment.

Instead of “shall”, it would be “may, at his or her discretion”, so it's a fairly simple change.

3:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

So “shall” would be changed to “may, at his or her discretion”.

Then paragraph 10(1)(a) says, “The measures taken by the Government of Canada to ensure that its commitment under section 5 and the targets set out in the target plan are being met, including”, and then this is what would replace “measures taken in respect of”: after the word “including”, it would read, “the targets in the Government of Canada's Turning the Corner plan and measures taken in respect of”.

Under subparagraph 10(1)(a)(i) would be “the framework announced on March 10, 2008”. That would become the new subparagraph 10(1)(a)(i), and the other subparagraphs, (i) to (iv), would now become subparagraphs (ii) to (v). So it would be inserting a new subparagraph 10(1)(a)(i).

This will address a number of the concerns I raised yesterday dealing with the vagueness, the emptiness of Bill C-377. We heard from the witnesses that Bill C-377 was void of policy, void of anything that would see action happen. I'd be glad to share more details.

Do I have permission to continue speaking?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Yes. Could we get that in writing, so that all members are clear on what it says? At the front desk here we're not clear on what the amendment is, so we need to get it in writing.

Yes?

3:35 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Chair, this came up in committee before; I'm sure Mr. Bigras was going to mention it. We've had experience in this committee in the past that when documents were not made available in both official languages and the translatability is not present, many problems are created. It's part of what this place is to respect both official languages. I don't think bringing amendments that weren't given even enough time for translation.... And certainly amendments that are intended to gut a piece of legislation also would counter it.

On the first premise, showing up with no paper at the last minute, untranslated, is something this committee collaboratively committed to not do; we all did, from all corners. We said we wouldn't do this anymore, because it had been raised by Mr. Bigras and others a number of times.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Godfrey, I believe you had your hand up.

Let's just deal with this issue first; then I will consult with our clerks.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I was just going to summarize the amendment as I understand it.

The amendment seeks to eliminate the aggressive targets that are outlined under clause 5, replace them with the unaggressive targets in the Turning the Corner plan, and then say that the government isn't even obliged to report on its own unaggressive targets. That would be the purport.

Why doesn't the parliamentary secretary simply insert the word “not” in there: “On or before May 31 each year, the Minister shall not prepare a statement setting out” all the things? That would cover pretty much what he's trying to do here.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

That is a suggestion. Now, give me half a second.

Please pay attention.

We had an amendment, which was in both official languages, we voted on that amendment, and that amendment was accepted. Today we are on to the main clause—clause 10 as amended—and so subamendments cannot be entertained from the floor, because we're talking about the main amendment. Had we done this prior to it, we could accept subamendments from the floor in one language, simply because they're subamendments that have come up as the discussion has gone on.

But at this point we are into talking about this clause. When we come to clause 11, obviously we have one amendment. We can have subamendments, and they can be in either English or French. We will get them translated and in due course vote on them, and they will be accepted or not.

The problem with introducing and basically having this...and I'm going to throw this back to the committee. We can accept this amendment, which we are about to receive, if the committee is prepared to accept that amendment. If not, we will continue to debate clause 10 and vote on clause 10 eventually, and then move on to clause 11, where we can accept the amendment, plus subamendments in one language.

But basically, by the rules, to accept a new amendment at this point, when we have had the rules set out that they be submitted in both official languages, if the committee were to decide.... We don't have to accept this amendment at this point, simply because it wasn't done according to what the committee had previously decided. It's basically the will of the committee as to whether we accept this--ultimately go back to just debating clause 10 or take this new amendment. The committee needs to decide that.

Does everybody understand the rules?

Mr. Godfrey.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I move that the committee support the chair's ruling.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I'm not really making a ruling; I'm asking you for your advice.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Well, all right. I move that we proceed to the vote on clause 10 as amended.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Warawa.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Chair, I want to thank you and to apologize to the committee for not providing that motion in both official languages. I should have and I didn't, and I apologize for that.

It was in the spirit of enthusiasm. Mr. Cullen had asked for some amendments, and I believed that request was genuine, just as when Mr. Layton had asked that the plan in Bill C-377 be costed, and as Matthew Bramley asked that it be costed. I thought there was a genuine effort or recommendation from the NDP that we have an opportunity to improve Bill C-377.

Bill C-377, unfortunately, as I have shared before, is—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I don't want to interrupt, but basically I think we have a suggestion—I've made a suggestion—that I would like the committee to give me advice on. We could go around talking about this advice for some time, but I think we could put it to a vote to decide whether we accept this as an amendment. I realize you have gotten the rules and are prepared to withdraw the—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Yes, I'm fine with that. I'm withdrawing it and would now like to speak to clause 10—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

That's perfect, with the understanding that subamendments can be done in clauses 11, 12, and 13, as we move forward, without being in both official languages, because that's how subamendments can be dealt with.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

So we can make motions, but we cannot make an amendment to this at this time, unless it were done in both official languages?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

That's correct.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

That may be an option for the future, if we don't complete Bill C-377 today.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Right. What I come back to, then, is let's get back to clause 10—