Evidence of meeting #24 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. Harvey is speaking. Then we have Mr. Warawa and Mr. Petit.
Do you want to be on the list?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
No, I just want....
Are the other six members of the Conservative caucus on the list?
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
They are not on the list. They are not voting members on this committee. They're here as observers. Any member of Parliament, of the 308 of us, can observe any committee we want, any time we want. That's the rule.
Can we get back to Mr. Harvey, please?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Can we find out who else is speaking from the Conservative side?
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Again, I'm trying to find out whether we're going to be done by May 7.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. Harvey, Mr. Petit, Mr. Warawa, and Mr. Watson will be the speakers, if they get on the list.
6:15 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So the trick now is that we don't keep a longer list. I see.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Chairman, I didn't have anything written down on paper, so it's difficult to go back to exactly what I was saying when I was stopped by the Opposition parties.
I was discussing the management of metals used in batteries. Nickel batteries are treated, not in Canada, but abroad. So, as soon as you start talking about transportation, you are necessarily talking about CO2 emissions. When you say you're producing electricity using wind or solar energy, are you not really just moving the CO2 emissions somewhere else? We want the level of reliability to be acceptable to both industry and society, and I want to remind my friends in the Opposition that, even though we can always do without heating in July, when it's -30o in January, we need certain facilities, and we need them to be reliable.
6:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
It's important to consider the management of battery-based wind energy systems. Reference has been made to solar energy systems, but we all know that solar panels do not work at night. In Quebec City, there were five meters of snow on the ground at one point. Solar panels had to be heated so that snow would not accumulate on them. And we haven't even talked about the energy required to produce those same solar panels. You may have a solar panel, but the fact is that twice as much energy is required to make a photovoltaic cell with silicone than what a solar panel produces, in terms of energy, in ten years. Some colleagues were saying earlier that they were having trouble understanding what I was saying. It's called the enthalpy principle. It's a chemical principle whereby you calculate the energy generated by a product, as compared to the energy required to initiate the process…
6:15 p.m.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
I am sure you will agree, Mr. Chairman, that the connection between clause 10 and the comments made by my colleague, Mr. Harvey, is remote at best. I would ask you to remind him of the rules and request that he deal with clause 10.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Mr. Harvey, if you could refer to clause 10 when you're talking about your examples it would really help clarify it for all of us.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Chairman, very few people are familiar with the terms I have been using here. That is why I prefer to explain them clearly, especially since enthalpy is the central principle. Production of hydrogen or any other form of biofuel may rest on the principle of enthalpy, be it negative or positive enthalpy.
As we all know, 60% of the earth's surface is water. Water contains a very valuable molecule. The H2O symbol tells us that it is made up of two molecules of hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen. The difficult part is separating the hydrogen molecule from the oxygen molecule. There are two ways of doing that.
6:20 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Mr. Chair, I have a point of order, please.
I've been listening now for eleven minutes. We've had a discussion that is completely out of order. He's speaking about the solar system in Quebec City as if it's a separate solar system from the rest of the planet. He's speaking about solar power. He's inventing words around molecules. It makes absolutely no sense and has no bearing on this clause.
You must exercise your discretion, Mr. Chair. Keep this member on the point or have him stop talking--or we'll give him another phone book.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
Again, Mr. Harvey, if you look at clause 10, it talks about transition funds, market-based mechanisms, cooperation agreements, and accountability. It talks about any number of items that you need to refer to and talk about in clause 10. It's very clear there are a number of items here.
When Mr. Watson talked about the auto industry and transition funds, how they related to that and threatened jobs, and so on, he was talking about clause 10. So we must talk about clause 10 as amended, because ultimately that's what we're going to be voting on. Members want information on clause 10 as amended.
Thank you.
Mr. Harvey.
6:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Chairman, we're talking about transition funds and impacts on employment, and I believe it's important to debate energy supply and the reliability of our energy sources, whether they be electricity, gas, oil, coal or nuclear power. That's the reason why I'm addressing this issue. In fact, you will notice that, for the first time, I am talking about a variety of solutions, and especially of technologies which, while available, are not necessarily useful. It's important to understand that managing transitions requires, not political, but scientific data. I am referring here to data that are known to, and recognized by, industry as a whole.
Mr. Chairman, as I explained earlier, it is rather difficult to make a speech when you are constantly being interrupted. You lose your train of thought.
In terms of hydroelectricity and the implied collateral damage, we know that hydroelectric plants emit no CO2. And we can forget about CO2 emissions associated with construction, be it for producing cement, steel or other materials, because they are one-time emissions. CO2 emissions end when construction ends. On the other hand, mercury has been present in our water for several dozen years now because land that was flooded at some point is emitting mercury accumulated over thousands of years. When land is flooded, mercury dissolves into the water and affects wildlife.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Point of order, Mr. Chair.
You are not exercising your responsibilities, in my view. This member is continuing to speak about mercury contamination of sediment at the bottom of lakes. He is deliberately obfuscating and obstructing. You are facilitating. It is not for you, Chair, in my humble estimation, to help him and coach him through what he should be saying. He is a grown man who is a full member of Parliament. He knows the rules.
You have warned him now three times in a row. He is not speaking about this clause. He is not speaking about this bill. He is extrapolating and speaking extemporaneously. He is not addressing anything to do with the merits. This is part and parcel of the seventeen-hour marathon we've seen being exercised by the government MPs, on instruction from the Prime Minister's Office.
I think you now have to exercise your responsibilities and ask this member, if he has nothing constructive to say about this, to stand down and give the floor to someone who might--although I highly doubt it if it's coming from the Conservative side.