Environment Committee on May 7th, 2008

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I could have just been nice. I should have been nice today.

[Sheila Fraser]

If I may, I think this is actually a very important question. I think the reason Mr. Thompson made comments about the bill that's under study right now is that based on the audit work that has been done by several commissioners, it has been very clear that there is a need for an overall framework and an overall strategy, that these individual strategies within departments are not working, and that there needs to be this overall strategy. I think it was in that context that he would have said that.

Now, if we had done work, for example, on mechanisms for climate change--

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

And looked at intensity targets and found them to be failures....

[Sheila Fraser]

--and looked at intensity targets, and had something to say, then we could have at least brought that information forward, but it would have been on the basis of fact-based work that we would have done either in government or in studies.

To respond to the comment that you made, one of the recommendations of the green ribbon panel was to make fuller use of the various tools available to us, as Mr. Vaughan mentioned--studies, reports, benchmarking--and we will certainly look at that. So we are not limited to simply audits, in fact.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You also mentioned guidance, which I think is an interesting thing.

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, we have done guidance. Actually, the first commissioner gave a lot of guidance on how to prepare sustainable development strategies. We have done guidance on financial management. Why can't we do guidance on environmental management? Those are the kinds of issues we will be looking at, including where would be the best use of our resources and what kinds of other products.

So I want to assure the committee that we are not simply limited to audit. That's a choice that was made by a particular commissioner in terms of the kind of direction they wanted to go in. Given the green ribbon panel, I think we will be looking at a whole series of tools and different products that are available to us.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to wedge another....

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Your time is up, I'm sorry, Mr. Cullen.

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I want to welcome Madam Fraser and Commissioner Vaughan. I look forward to working with you. Minister Baird just released a statement saying that accountability and oversight is an important keystone of responsible government. It's also important when it comes to ensuring the health of our environment, and that's why I look forward to working with Mr. Vaughan now and in the future.

I'm sure you've seen this document. We received this about two months ago, and we also had a report in October. At that time, we agreed to a review. In about five months, we'll be reporting back, department by department. We acknowledge that since 1995, since the establishment of the Office of the Commissioner of the Environment, there have been year after year of shortfalls. In the most recent report of two months ago, we saw that, of the 14 departments audited, five were satisfactory and nine were not. So I believe we have a lot more work to do, and I appreciate your challenges.

This is a politically charged committee, and at times there are shots that are used. Your future comments may or may not be used in that way. In the past, some comments have been turned this way to address the shortcomings of the previous government. But today I'm going to focus on where we go from here—to clean up the environment. We have a duty to make our country healthy—economically, environmentally, and socially—for this generation and those to come.

You focused on two primary topics. You said that:

First, the sustainable development strategies prepared by different agencies and departments are not working. I look forward to working with this committee and all departments and agencies to frame some of the parameters needed to move forward. Again, within five months we'll be reporting back, and we look forward to working with you.

The second point was the environmental petition process. I found the reports from Madam Fraser's office to be interesting reading. They pointed out the importance and the level of participation in the petition process. Of the few people who are aware of this process, there were some who used it repeatedly. When you consider the number of petitions according to the multiplication factor, you find that maybe a lot of people don't know about the process. I look forward to seeing this promoted and made available to average Canadians who are concerned about what the government is doing.

I know you're not here to discussBill C-474, but it has been mentioned. My concern is that we have legislation that is well thought out and that takes the government in the right direction. Our witnesses have been very critical of this bill. Yet we're already rushing toward clause-by-clause and submitting amendments—this before we've finished hearing from the witnesses. That concerns me. But in the end, we as a Parliament are responsible for achieving something that works.

I apologize for rambling a little bit here. My question is, how important is it that we work together, as a political body, to focus on solutions that will see absolute reductions in greenhouse emissions, absolute reductions in pollution for cleaner air, cleaner water? How important is it that we focus on the technological tools we have here in Canada to help Canada and the world?

[Scott Vaughan]

I think, generally, that your trying to find practical approaches to problems is welcome from our side, as it gives us a clear sense of what your priorities are as a committee and the advice you will be providing us as we continue our work. So yes, without knowing the details—and I apologize for not knowing the details—these are important issues you face.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

We look forward to working with you. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks very much, witnesses, for coming today. I really appreciate it. I have always enjoyed this committee, and I actually worked on it for two years. But I'm more interested in the future, not necessarily in the past or the Liberal record, or whatever record there may be, because the health and future of Canada and Canadians depends on it.

I'm a 41-year resident of Fort McMurray, and I would say it's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in the world. In fact the air quality in downtown Fort McMurray is four to ten times better than it is in downtown Toronto, as surprising as that may be. Indeed, I can still drink right from the Clearwater River, which flows through the community. So it's quite a nice place, and I would invite you to come there. If you do, I'd consider it an honour to take you around. I think that of all the times I've invited members of this committee there, only two members have ever shown up.

[An hon. member]

Who was that?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Mills and Mr. Warawa, as shocking as that may be.

I'm interested in balance. I think you have a very tough job in front of you, because you have a situation, for instance, in the oil sands, where 500,000 jobs have been created across this country, including 85,000 jobs for workers in Ontario supplying stuff for the oil sands. It fact it's 6% of the GDP of the country.

So I'm wondering how you balance that, because your job is to monitor and report progress and to take into account economic costs and different environmental and natural resource options. Quite frankly, I think it's extremely tough. So how do you perceive this balance is going to be done? Because it really is a balancing act in your reporting.

[Scott Vaughan]

Thank you, sir.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The issue of balance was the overarching concept of sustainable development, as articulated by the Brundtland Commission. I just spoke with Jim McNeill this morning, who was the secretary of the Brundtland Commission.

This is the issue that not only Canada, but also literally every single country is grappling with now, the issue of balance and what it means in real terms. But I think from your opening statement it's clear that Canadians are demanding and have high expectations of clean water, clean air, healthy food, and also of economic prosperity, employment and employment security. These issues of how to move forward with the trajectory of economic growth while ensuring that high standards of environmental quality are maintained are a priority of this office. It's something that's really at the forefront of our mind every single day.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

To be very fair, I've been in this job for four years now, and I can tell you that for this government in particular, it's at the forefront of their minds too. It's the future of our children and our grandchildren. It's very important.

The subprime mortgage crisis obviously happened in the U.S. and is creating economic turmoil elsewhere. I was in Australia in January, and they've been hit very hard. The entire world has been hit hard. In fact Canada seems to be the only country right now that's producing jobs in net terms, 750,000 in the last two years, for instance.

Will that be taken into consideration by you in your job, the economic condition of the rest of the world and the economic condition of Canada?

[Scott Vaughan]

In a word, sir, yes. In the context of the three pillars of sustainable development, obviously the issues related more generally to economic conditions are important questions. There's the question of whether or not there are changes in liquidity and what they do, for example, in terms of capital turnover for new technologies, or in terms of energy efficiency gains. This is why the parameters of sustainable development are inherently complex.

I think these types of issues are ones that, for example, the International Monetary Fund just looked at it in a report two months ago on climate change. So I think one of the issues that a lot of countries, including Canada, have taken note of is that environmental issues are inherently related to and interact with economic issues and social issues as well. This balancing issue is something that has to be addressed.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that, because I think it's very important.

I have a final question. I read in your bio about one of your recent publications, and I was concerned about it. It was called “Water Privatization: The Role of the GATS and Interests of Developing Countries”. I tried to find it, but I could find it only in French, and although I'm practising my French as much as possible, I have to tell you I couldn't read it and understand it thoroughly.

First of all, do you have a copy in English? Secondly, what, in essence, is that paper driving at?

[Scott Vaughan]

I'd be very glad to give you a copy of the paper. I'm not sure I would understand it any more. I wrote it about five years ago.

Very briefly, it was about the issue that many countries are facing on water management and the role of privatization generally. What the paper tried to look at was the conditions of ownership generally, and I think it came to the conclusion that there's no one single model. It depends not only on the country, but it also depends very much on a county and the municipalities. In some areas, for example, in Wales, the privatization experience actually led to a deterioration of water quality and higher prices. There are other experiences where there have been benefits. So really, the recommendation or the finding from the paper was that it was context-specific.

I'd be glad to give you a copy, sir.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I would like a copy of it, and I'm glad you confirmed that. I was concerned, because obviously the role of this government is not to privatize bulk water exports in any way in this country. So I wanted to make sure that was not part of your mandate in that paper.

[Scott Vaughan]

No.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jean.

We'll go very quickly to Mr. Scarpaleggia, if you have a question, and then Mr. Vellacott, and we'll end it at that point.

Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you.

Actually, I wanted to ask you about your publications on freshwater management. What other topics have these publications dealt with?