Environment Committee on May 7th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I will begin. We are slightly constrained by time because we have votes today.

I welcome our guests. Everybody knows who they are, but I'll introduce them formally in a minute.

Because of our water problem last Monday, we do have witnesses coming on Monday, and we have actually added a couple of witnesses we wouldn't have had before. They will be coming on Monday. As a result, I'm suggesting that although we obviously should hear the witnesses first, in order to give the clerk and everybody else sufficient time, we need to move the deadline for amendments to Wednesday, probably. Would that be long enough?

Mr. Godfrey.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Anticipating the point you're about to make, I'm going to make a suggestion that I have discussed with various other parties, the clerk, and with the legislative drafters.

The bulk of the amendments have already been submitted to the drafting people, and negotiations are going on now as we speak. We're still waiting on the Conservatives, but if we could get the bulk of the amendments in earlier and leave the possibility for amendments to be submitted on the Tuesday before the following Wednesday, I am assured that they have enough capacity at the drafting level to be able to handle that and circulate them on Wednesday morning, so we could proceed with clause-by-clause study on Wednesday afternoon and extend if necessary. We would be able to meet our deadlines and be done before the break. That would allow us to get back on the path of the other things we have to do, notably estimates.

This is all doable. It's not such a great burden. I have checked with other parties, and they seem to be agreeable. The earlier we can get amendments in, the easier this process will be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Are you anticipating doing clause-by-clause consideration in one day?

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Because we lost a day in the process, I would suggest that we extend on that day if necessary. We were looking for two days, but if we can go a bit longer on the Wednesday, we could be all done. That would still allow us to incorporate amendments, which would be influenced by the witnesses we might hear on Monday.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Go ahead, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Chair, I don't agree with Mr. Godfrey. I'm quite surprised that he has already made up his mind before we've even heard from the witnesses. His suggestion that we rush through this is exactly 180 degrees opposite from the advice we were hearing from the witnesses.

We have to be very careful. I would ask that we do extend. Your suggestion was May 14. We have a steering committee at the end of this meeting; before we have our steering committee, maybe we could discuss this further. I don't want to see the witnesses waiting.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

My procedural suggestion, then, is that instead of taking up the time, we pursue this discussion further at the steering committee at five o'clock today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

That's perfect.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Procedurally, if that's the case, then the next time the steering committee is not able to make decisions. It is this committee that makes decisions, so then you would have to have the steering committee report back on the 14th and then the decision of the steering committee would be agreed to or not agreed to.

We need to make this decision today, and I'd like us to do that after we've heard from the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

We do have it on the agenda for the steering committee, so let's deal with that then and hear our witnesses.

Before I do that, I would like all of us to take a moment to remember Charles Caccia. Charles was, of course, chair of this committee. He was chair when I started on this committee, and of course he served in Parliament 36 years as the member for Davenport.

I can say a lot about Charles. I think when I first came on this committee in late 2000, Charles knew immediately that he didn't like me and I decided I didn't like him. Over time, over the year or so as we worked through species-at-risk legislation and so on, Charles and I grew closer and closer in terms of respect for each other. I think Mr. Bigras would agree that that happened, and Mr. Cullen will remember Charles very closely, and of course Mr. Godfrey and most of the rest of you.

He had great passion; he had great dedication. He was very proud of the creation of an environment commissioner, so it's even fitting today that we have you here to pay tribute to Charles.

I don't want to belabour this, but I guess the best time probably for you and I, John, was when Charles set up a debate on climate change at the University of Ottawa. Charles said, “Bob, you're probably going to have a pretty rough time here. It's not going to be a friendly audience for you, but I think you'll do okay.” At the end, he said, “You know, both you and John did really well, and I don't think there was a winner or a loser.”

So that was Charles, always willing to listen to all sides but very definite in what he believed and how he ran this committee. I know as you do that he attended a number of our sessions, even up to probably up to a year ago, and a few weeks ago, and always watched this committee closely. He'd phone me sometimes three or four times a week to advise me on what should happen and shouldn't happen. So I feel that we've all lost a real friend, and certainly someone who I had a great deal of respect for.

I would propose that we move a motion of condolence to his wife. I would be more than happy to deliver that tomorrow. As you know, between two and four o'clock respects can be paid to his wife and family, and certainly I'll take advantage of that opportunity. On behalf of this committee, I'd very much like to have a unanimous motion to extend our condolences to his wife.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I'll ask the clerk then to prepare that and deliver it tomorrow on your behalf.

All of us have memories of Charles, and I don't think we all can share them at this point, but let's take a minute just to remember him.

[A moment of silence observed]

Thank you.

I think it's fitting as well that Karen Kraft Sloan hunted me down on Saturday, when Charles passed away, to let me know. It probably shows some of the compatibility that we developed, and comradeship and friendship, and so on, within the committee over the years, that someone as avid as Karen Kraft Sloan would be the one to chase me down and advise me about Charles's passing. That says a lot, I think, for what has happened in this place.

Anyway, I would like to welcome Sheila Fraser, of course, a good friend of ours, who has been here a number of times, our Auditor General; and our new environment commissioner, Scott Vaughan.

What we'd like is just a brief presentation.

Members, I would suggest that we keep this as brief as possible so that we can get on with the other business.

We did allocate 90 minutes, but if we can cut that to 60 minutes or less, I'm sure it will help you as well, and we'll move on. It's not that we're not interested; it's just that time is a problem to us, as always.

Let me ask you to make a brief presentation; then we'll ask questions.

[Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank you for this opportunity to discuss the results of the review conducted by the green ribbon panel and to introduce our new Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Mr. Scott Vaughan, to the committee.

As you are all aware, the Auditor General Act was amended in 1995, and those amendments gave us specific responsibilities with respect to environmental and sustainable development issues and notably created the position of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development.

Twelve years after our act was amended, and consistent with past reviews of the office's other products to help us better serve Parliament, in Spring 2007, I asked an independent panel of experts to review the environment and sustainable development practice of our office.

The members of the panel were chosen for their valuable knowledge of environmental and sustainable development issues. They are Elizabeth Dowdeswell, James Mitchell and Ken Ogilvie.

The panel's report, Fulfilling the Potential, was presented to me and then provided to you with my responses earlier this year. The panel concluded that the Office of the Auditor General and the commissioner have had a positive impact on the federal government's management of environmental and sustainable development issues. It also emphasized that we have developed a strong domestic and international reputation as a centre of excellence in environmental auditing.

While the panel recognized our good work, it also pointed out several ways for us to strengthen our practice for dealing with environmental and sustainable development issues. The office has agreed with all nine recommendations contained in the report and that are presented as appendix I.

Among the more significant recommendations, the panel noted that we should make full use of the commissioner's existing mandate, using all our valuable tools, to draw parliamentary and public attention to key environmental and sustainable development issues.

It also recommended that we articulate how sustainable development will be effected into our work plan. We are currently working on various options that will help us respond to both these recommendations.

I committed to revisiting our strategy to implement our environmental and sustainable development mandate and to formalize our new strategy within one year of the new commissioner's appointment. During the course of this review, we will be contacting parliamentarians for their views.

I know that the committee has shown much interest in the reporting of the commissioner's work. Let me assure you that the commissioner will continue to issue a separate and distinct report or reports. We have been experimenting with different tabling approaches and we will continue to do in the coming year—all in an effort to increase awareness of our work.

Now, Mr. Chair, I'm very pleased to present to the committee the newly appointed Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Mr. Scott Vaughan, who has been in the office only since Monday. He was selected following a rigorous process and, you will see, is eminently qualified for the position. Mr. Vaughan is an environmental economist with many years of experience. You will find details on his career path in the news release that is attached to this statement, which was made public today.

I will now ask Mr. Vaughan to address the committee.

[Scott Vaughan, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting me here today.

I am delighted to have been named commissioner and feel honoured to join such a talented team of professionals in the Office of the Auditor General. I have the privilege of building on a very strong foundation that is based on the accomplishments of Ron Thompson, of his colleagues within the department, and of his predecessors.

I hope that my experience will contribute to advancing environmental protection and sustainable development priorities in Canada, including drawing upon lessons and best practices from the international sphere.

Let me highlight two issues briefly this afternoon. First, the sustainable development strategies prepared by the different agencies and departments are not working. I look forward to working with this committee and with all departments and agencies to frame some of the parameters needed to move forward.

Second, the environmental petitions process helps build a bridge between the important work of the government and the concerns of Canadians everywhere—a good start has been made, and there may still be opportunities to improve the profile of the petitions process, give voice to those now unheard and ensure that follow-up responses reach those concerned in a timely and meaningful way.

I look forward to meeting with all members of the committee in the coming weeks. I will be seeking your views on how to translate the recommendations of the Green Ribbon Panel into actions to provide parliamentarians with focused, timely, and relevant assessments of the challenges regarding Canada's environmental commitments.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you. I look forward to working with you to advance the important mandate of this office.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the interim commissioner, Ron Thompson, for his many contributions to the work of our office. Mr. Thompson has been trying to retire since 2006. Very fortunately for us, he stayed on to help us with a variety of pressing demands, including stepping in to act as interim commissioner in January 2007. Once again he has graciously agreed to stay to help the new commissioner during the transition, and in that role he will continue to appear before committee on his recent reports for the remainder of the parliamentary session.

We will soon be inviting committee members to an event we are organizing in Mr. Thompson's honour.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I take great pride in having the position of Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development with the Office of the Auditor General. I look forward to working with Mr. Vaughan and determining the future directions of our environment and sustainable development practice.

That concludes my opening remarks, Mr. Chair. We will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you very much.

We look forward to the opportunity of thanking Ron personally for his reports and his numerous appearances before the committee.

We'll begin with Mr. McGuinty, please. I understand you might share your time.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming in, Ms. Fraser.

Mr. Vaughan, congratulations on your appointment.

I just have factual questions, housekeeping questions.

I see in the recommendations from the green ribbon panel report, Ms. Fraser, that the commissioner be appointed for a fixed seven-year, non-renewable term. Is that the case with Mr. Vaughan?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, that is the case.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is he appointed at pleasure?

[Sheila Fraser]

In the sense that he is an employee of the office on a term contract--there is a contract for seven years--

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is that what the employment letters call a no-cut, seven-year contract?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm not sure what all the conditions of the contract are, but I would not expect that there would be any difficulties over a seven-year contract.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm not asking that lightly. I ask it in the context of what's been happening in Ottawa recently in the last couple of years with very senior Governor in Council appointees facing legal action, being dismissed in the dead of night. Objectively, it is a pattern. Linda Keen received a phone call at 10:30 at night at her home informing her she should not come forward to testify the next morning. So I am asking because I really want to make sure this commissioner is protected against the vagaries of government.

Is that the case here, Mr. Vaughan?

[Sheila Fraser]

Let me assure you, Chair and members of the committee, Mr. Vaughan is an employee of the Office of the Auditor General. We are a separate employer. We have our own hiring and classification practices. Government does not intervene in any decisions we have as regards human resources, and I would be the first to inform Parliament quite vocally should government ever try to intervene in our human resource practices.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you for that.

My second question is to Mr. Vaughan directly.

Mr. Vaughan, in your opening remarks you really caught my attention, because in the third paragraph you said “the sustainable development strategies prepared by different agencies and departments are not working”. This committee has put a lot of energy and a lot of time into examining the role of the office you now occupy. It voted in favour of an independent commissioner. The government opposed the notion of an independent commissioner reporting directly to Parliament. And we're now really in the thick of Mr. Godfrey's bill, which the official opposition thinks will help strengthen the hands of the officers inside the federal structure who are responsible for delivering on sustainability strategies and so forth.

I know it's way too early to ask you to comment on either Mr. Godfrey's bill or the independence of the office you are now occupying, but I would say just as a point of introduction, it's an issue that's not gone away. There are many hundreds of Canadians who still write to me asking me the outcome of that motion that was passed here in this committee before the government prorogued Parliament. So there's a lot of appetite and a lot of interest in how the office is occupied and your legislative responsibilities and so on.

So I want to thank you for at least tackling this very forthrightly by simply coming out and saying these strategies aren't working, and I hope there will be other times to have a more detailed conversation.

I also really want to commend you for your overture to meet with us to have a conversation about how we can improve the situation in Canada.

Those are my remarks, Mr. Chair. I asked Mr. Regan to pick up for a few minutes.