Evidence of meeting #37 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was phosphorus.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
So, amending the legislation prior to July 2010 could cause a soap shortage in Canada.
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
I believe 10 states have already passed legislation, based on the 0.5% maximum limit, with an implementation date of July 2010. I believe four or six other states are currently moving in that direction, but they all have the July 1, 2010, deadline. There's a complete exemption for commercial and institutional facilities, or a maximum limit of 8.7%. That's for hospitals, schools, or any sorts of facilities that have commercial or institutional dishwashing machines.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Fine, thank you.
Mr. Carignan, you said earlier that blue-green algae is not a public safety issue.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Public health issue. It is not a public health issue; it is an issue relating to poor environmental management. A good analogy would be acid rain. Acid rain never killed anyone. And yet, we have spent about $20 billion in North America to try and solve, or at least, mitigate that problem. It has not yet been solved and it should be seen in exactly the same light: as a problem resulting from environmental degradation.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Carignan, this may be an urban legend, but I am told that long-term consumption of water containing traces of cyanobacteria can cause Alzheimer's disease and other illnesses.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
It is an urban legend. The Quebec Ministry of Health and Social Services and other ministries in Canada have set standards with respect to cyanotoxins. In order to reach those cyanotoxin thresholds, there must be very significant concentrations of cyanobacteria. It is important to remember that cyanobacteria occurs naturally in aquatic environments. It's simply a matter of the type and quantity of cyanobacteria that are present.
I would agree that our way of managing lakes and rivers is not environmentally friendly and fosters the proliferation of cyanobacteria. The laws and regulations have to be changed. Eliminating phosphorus from domestic detergents is one way of reducing a small proportion of cyanobacteria at very low cost.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
There is no doubt that, in that case, we are tackling 1 per cent of the problem.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
No, you are tackling 10 per cent of the problem in recreational lakes.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Traces of soap represent 1 per cent of the problem, but in recreational lakes, the real issue is septic systems. It's not just soap.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Exactly. Dishwasher soap represents 10 per cent of the total phosphorus that ends up in a septic tank. So, the problem can easily be reduced by 10 per cent. To completely eliminate it, we will have to tackle other aspects of the problem.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
I see.
A bill on the use of phosphorus was, in fact, tabled in February 2008, if I'm not mistaken. Now we are talking about a bill that would amend the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. Action has been taken, but based on a timeline of July 2010.
Ms. Jelley, for the average person who needs to clean his dishes and his clothing, what impact would the immediate removal of phosphorus have on soap prices?
Director, Policy, Canadian Consumer Specialty Products Association
The industry is still looking at the reformulation, so it's unclear right now if the price will increase, decrease, or stay the same. They're still doing their testing to find a product that is as effective as and has a better environmental profile than phosphorous.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Last week, Mr. Bigras brought in an issue of the magazine Protégez-Vous. It said that a phosphorus-free soap or one containing less than 0.5 per cent phosphorus costs between two and six times more. If we take away products containing phosphorus, thereby creating pressure, prices could go up.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
I can answer that question.
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Over the long term, the removal of phosphorus from the products sold by the major manufacturers will have no effect on prices. Current phosphate-free detergents are expensive because manufacturers are producing much smaller volumes. Because it is scarce, manufacturers are able to charge up to five times more than for the usual products. However, even those products are starting to disappear from the market. Large chains, notably those that sell the President's Choice brand, are starting to sell dishwashing detergents without phosphorus that are no more expensive than the other products.
Conservative
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I think it is important to consider that there are different types of dishwashers. We were talking about that a little earlier. A commercial dishwasher has a wash cycle that lasts only about a minute or two, whereas a domestic dishwasher has a much longer cycle. Things cannot be cleaned properly in commercial dishwashers with products that do not contain phosphorus.
Is that correct, Mr. Carignan?
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
No. In any case, commercial machines use heat for purposes of sterilization. This may not even be a problem for hospitals. We would need to look at that. Dishwasher detergents that do not contain phosphorus are almost as effective as the other detergents. We would have to look at the cycle used in those machines, but I am pretty certain that they use heat for sterilization. Because sterilization occurs by using heat, commercial and institutional machines may not represent any risk whatsoever of disease transmission.
Liberal
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
No, I have never conducted such a study. I am an environmental chemist; I do not study dishwashers.
Liberal
Full Professor, Department of Biological Sciences, University of Montréal, As an Individual
Yes, but I am sure that most commercial dishwashers that have a one- or two-minute cycle use heat for sterilization. Also, one part of the cycle of most domestic dishwashers is at a very high temperature. I don't think that the lack of phosphorus in commercial machines with a one- or two-minute cycle has any impact on the presence of pathogens in water.
