Environment Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bigras, time...

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I am asking for clarification, I do not want to get into a debate.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I will provide an explanation. I am not here to argue. The problem is that we can only study one motion at a time. Therefore, in my opinion, Mr. Warawa is right. As his motion was already being studied, your substantive motion was out of order. If, before presenting your substantive motion, you had tabled a motion to adjourn or another motion, it would have been studied immediately and would have been voted on immediately. However, your substantive motion was out of order.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do motions to modify the agenda have precedence over other motions, knowing that Mr. Warawa had not yet taken the floor?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The problem remains the same. If his motion is being studied, another motion would be out of order. I made a mistake, I am sorry. His motion is in order at the moment.

You have challenged my decision, so we will vote on that.

I don't know how we do that.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I will therefore withdraw my confidence motion.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

We have debate on the motion from Mr. Warawa.

Go ahead, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you.

We did experience a little--actually, a little bit too much--political rhetoric at times, but I think there still may be goodwill left in this committee to wish the minister a very successful time in Indonesia.

Mr. Chair, it is very clear that in the Speech from the Throne the government shared a very direct plan and very clearly shared the message it will be bringing to Indonesia. That's consistent with what happened at the G8, APEC, the United Nations, and last week in Uganda at the Commonwealth conference. It included absolute reductions in greenhouse gases of 20% by 2020 and a further reduction of 60% to 70% by 2050. Our Speech from the Throne included a domestic carbon market and a comprehensive strategy for the Arctic, including a world-class Arctic research station. It included national air pollution with regulations. It included a new water strategy to protect our rivers, lakes, and oceans. It included tougher enforcement that will make polluters accountable, Mr. Chair.

I believe it was a very clear plan. I'm very pleased that it was supported by Parliament. We have an endorsement from Parliament to take that message to Indonesia. There was an opportunity not to support it, but Parliament did support that message.

We have a mandate to bring that, and in that spirit we have had a minister provide a very enlightening message to us. It was good. Now we want to wish him well and wish him a successful conclusion to Indonesia at the Bali COP 13, and that would include asking that all major emitters be part of absolute reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Not only will this permit Canada to continue to take a leadership role, but it will also provide absolute reductions in greenhouse gases globally, which will deal with the issue of the growing climate change crisis.

I think it's an appropriate motion. Again, it recognizes the support that Parliament has given, the endorsement that Parliament has given--

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I'd like to call the question, Mr. Chair. Could I call the question now?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You want to call the question?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Right now.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Well, there's no procedure for calling the question in committee, as you may know. You can't move the previous question; that's what you're referring to, right? There's no such procedure in committees of the House of Commons. We allow debate as long as members wish to debate.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I'm sorry for interrupting, then, sir. I assumed I could call the question. I don't want to be rude.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is there agreement to move to call the question?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I'll back off. I don't want to be rude.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I was just getting started here.

Mr. Chair, we'll implement a new water strategy to help clean up our major lakes and oceans and to improve access to safe drinking water for first nations. Mr. Chair, that is excellent news. And again, it was endorsed by Parliament. We've already taken action on that strategy by announcing a plan to get tough on sewage dumping and to bring in tough new regulations on sewage treatment across the country. Chair, Mr. Bigras himself expressed concern about the blue-green algae, and we've supported that report to the House. But also we need to deal with agriculture, we need to deal with blue-green algae from sewage, and that's what this government has done. Again, we've received the endorsement of Parliament to bring that message to Indonesia.

Last week, Canada's government announced $42.5 million for Canadian oceans. That's amazing, Mr. Chair. Not only does this take action on ocean protection, but it helps protect environmentally sensitive areas across Canada, such as the Scott Islands in British Columbia, working with groups like the World Wildlife Fund.

Mr. Chair, for far too many years the previous Liberal government—long years, Mr. Chair—failed to act on the environment. Canada will finally have the tough national rules needed to improve water quality, to protect the health of Canadians, to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and to globally deal with the issue that we all need to deal with.

Here are the facts. The opposition can't ask the government to do something it didn't do itself; there's an inconsistency. We saw under the Liberals that greenhouse gas emissions increased by 33% above target. Is that what Canadians were promised? No, in 1993 they promised to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The previous government committed to meeting the Kyoto Protocol and in 2004 ended up 33% above the target, above those promises.

We heard today that there has been a failure to fight climate change. Part of that failure is the responsibility of some around this table. Decisions were made to not take seriously the issue of climate change. We heard that from the minister today.

We owe it to Canada, we owe it to the globe, to get serious, and this government has. Failure to fight climate change is not an option. We must face the challenge head-on. We heard that from the minister today, and we need to take that message not only here in Canada, but to Indonesia.

Chair, I think it's appropriate to continue the support, as I said earlier to members of this committee. In the House, some did not support it, but the majority of Parliament did endorse the message of the government that we heard in the Speech from the Throne, and it's to get serious about climate change. We've turned the corner on 13 long years of Liberal inaction.

We need to look at solutions, and this government is committed to solutions, solutions such as energy efficiency, renewable fuels, carbon capture and storage, a domestic carbon trading market. And we want to work with the United States, with China, and with India to make sure they are committed to the solution.

We all remember the chart we saw here not very long ago, a chart that showed increases in greenhouse gas emissions that will be coming from India and China and the United States. We have an obligation—I believe each one of us believes in that obligation—to deal with it. We need to deal with the problem. The problem is growing greenhouse gas emissions.

Chair, how do we do that? We need to make sure everybody is participating. If you saw somebody there with a garden hose emptying water onto a lawn, and it's flooding, you would stop the flood, stop this abuse, and stop the waste of this water, this precious resource. It's one thing to water a lawn, but to have it soak and waste and to see the water running down the curb would be a terrible waste. That's what we're seeing in the environment. We have to turn those taps off. We have to stop the abuse of the atmosphere. We have to stop the abuse of dumping excess amounts of carbon dioxide, greenhouse gas emissions, into our atmosphere.

We heard, actually, from Mr. McGuinty, I believe it was, last week, or it may have been at the beginning of this week, but he talked about dumping greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere at the expense of the globe. I'm paraphrasing; I hope I'm not misquoting him. I agree. There has been a past history of governments doing that, of dumping excess greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere. What do we have as a result of that? Climate change. We have warming climates.

We've heard through the IPCC report that even if Canada and the United States were to go down to zero emissions, to stop everything, greenhouse gas emissions would continue to rise. We saw that on chart number 4.

So how important is it that we have everybody participating? Again, going back to that analogy, I have too many people putting water on the lawn. It's gone far beyond watering the lawn; it's now flooding it and wasting this resource. We need to get China to start closing that tap. When? Now. How about India? How about the United States? To get a solution to deal with the crisis of climate change, you have to get all the major emitters to be part of the solution. That's what the Prime Minister has said. Clearly, he has taken that leadership. Also, the minister is going to be taking that message to Indonesia.

Mr. Chair, I think it's critical that we continue our support, continue the endorsement. I'm concerned that if members around this table don't support that, they're not supporting how they voted in regard to the Speech from the Throne. What kind of message does that give? We need consistency. We need to deal with the issue of climate change.

Mr. Chair, I think the motion is very clear. It supports continuing the mandate, and I hope all members will support this.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Warawa.

Now, Mr. Vellacott, you were interested in voting on this. Are you now wishing to vote on that?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I'd like to speak. I have some important things I want to say first.

I think the motion before us is appropriate, obviously, and in view of the minister's coming and giving of his time today, something we should all want for our children and our grandchildren is the very best in terms of the meetings in Bali of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. The truth is pretty simple, and it's quite clear as well. Numerous people around the world have been catching on to that fact: we have to involve all these other players in the world, particularly the big countries. Without that, it's a bit of an exercise in futility, to some degree, in terms of the total picture.

So the Indonesian meeting, as we know, will decide on a process, on a timeline, to negotiate a post-2012 deal. Canada has already indicated we're going to work very hard to get an agreement that defines that process appropriately so we have a post-2012 agreement, Mr. Chair, that requires all major emitters to cut greenhouse gases. Particularly, I think, it's been noted here today that we need to include China, India, and the U.S. as well. All these countries need to be involved if we're going to make progress.

It doesn't matter if they're in the developed or in the developing world, air currents know no particular borders and don't distinguish between developed or developing countries. So we need to work in concert with all the countries of the globe. Greenhouse gases and air pollution know no borders, and they affect every one of us on this planet. That's why, in fairness, in terms of progress, in terms of getting a successful outcome, we need to have a deal that applies to all nations equally.

I think we're all probably quite aware that Indonesia is not the end of the negotiations for a post-Kyoto deal. It's really just the beginning. It's an important first part, but it's the beginning. It's not the end, because we go from there in terms of implementation, with all the countries of the world having to do their own particular things to reduce greenhouse gases, with Canada showing some leadership. Those major emitters, Mr. Chair, like China and India and the United States, need to be on board, with an oar in the water, as we say, rowing in the same direction. We've got to be pulling together on this to make progress.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

What does that mean?

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Rowing together? We've all got to be heading together.

We had an Olympic athlete in that area around this place, Mr. Anderson, a previous environment minister, and I think he knows what it means to row together, with the oars in the water, in the same direction.

For example, even if the United States stopped emitting greenhouse gases, GHGs would still skyrocket because of those other countries, because of China. The coal plants that are coming on on a monthly basis in China, India, and Korea have been mentioned here. That's why we need to get all those major emitters to the table, Mr. Chair. Countries like Canada have to move forward to show leadership and move first. We've done that with the commitment we referred to before--and the minister made reference to that as well--a commitment to an absolute reduction of 20% by the year 2020.

Canadians want action. All parties are quite aware of that. All the polling indicates the same: we want some action on the environment. That's why our Prime Minister, our Minister of the Environment, and our delegation heading off to Bali are delivering every single day, whether it's international leadership at the United Nations or billions in new spending for environmental programs in our country as well.

That, Mr. Chair, is the real action Canadians want and can depend on from this government.

Over the last few months, Canada has been at the forefront of international action on climate change, including the leadership the Prime Minister showed at the G8, and again at the APEC summit, and then also at the United Nations, most recently in Kampala, Uganda, with a realistic plan, saying maybe what others were fearful to say. But the fact that we have these others involved is pretty crucial, pretty necessary to the process.

Canada will continue to work forcefully--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Vellacott, forgive me, but there is a point of order by Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I want to recognize that we are in the bizarre circumstance of the government filibustering themselves at this point. The ridiculousness of this is beyond the pale.

[An hon. member]

That's not a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's offensive to the taxpayers of Canada.