Environment Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Al Gore, Achim Steiner...not a single research institute, not a single industrial group, not your officials, not a single scientist, not a single economist, supports the plan you say you're going to put forward.

Are you actually serious in telling Canadians that what we've done at home has given us credibility abroad, Minister? Please help us understand this.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm pleased to respond.

You talked about trade fairness. One, you said I misspoke a quote of Al Gore. We'll file a videotape with the committee that shows it is exactly, word for word, what he said.

Two, you raised UNEP and gave some comments from the spokesperson. I tabled with the committee written proof, under his own signature, of the quote. So you're wrong, for the second time.

Third, people can speculate as to whether our plan will or will not...but if we go to slide 10, we can look at the results of the previous years. If you look here, Australia is up 4.5%, the United States is up by 16%, and Canada, under the leadership of Stéphane Dion, is up 25.3%. Those are facts.

You can talk about speculations and assessments of what is going to happen in the next 13 years, and I can talk about the facts of what has happened over the last 10 years. Every single Liberal environment minister said that the Liberal Party and Stéphane Dion were not serious about climate change. Every single report shows that greenhouse gases skyrocketed under your term.

I'm not going to take any lectures from a Liberal environment critic.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

We'll go to Mr. Bigras now for his 10 minutes.

Monsieur Bigras, vous avez dix minutes.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll wait for your apology on the misrepresentations you made.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bigras, the floor is yours.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to tell you that we are very concerned about your presence in Bali over the next few weeks. We are very concerned because your government basically has two policies. For example, take Ms. Ambrose's position in Nairobi, where I was as well. Ms. Ambrose argued in favour of the Kyoto Protocol, and told us—with her hand on her heart—that she believed in it. Several months later, just last weekend, we heard from the Prime Minister, who was in Africa, that the Kyoto Protocol had suddenly become a mistake that the government should never have committed.

So what are we to understand from those two different messages—what Ms. Ambrose said in Nairobi, and what the Prime Minister said this week?

Secondly, I find it somewhat pretentious on the part of the minister to quote Quebec's Minister of Sustainable Development, Environment and Parks, when just yesterday, Quebec's National Assembly unanimously denounced the position of the Canadian government so far. You have a duty to be at least respectful towards parliamentarians and tell them the truth. That is all I wanted to say before putting my questions.

Did your advisors inform you of the conference with Mr. de Boer this afternoon? Mr. de Boer made a speech before 500 people at the carbon market trade fair and conference in Asia. It has just gone on the wire. Were you told what Mr. de Boer just said to the international community?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You're talking about a press release that they just put on the wire. I haven't seen the press release you're referring to.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I will tell the minister what Mr. de Boer said. Mr. de Boer has just told the international community, before 500 people at the Carbon Forum in Asia, at the carbon market trade fair and conference in Singapore, that without a post-2012 agreement that puts firm downward pressure on emissions, and I quote:

...the market could disappear more quickly than it appeared. What's worse, the cost to our planet if emissions are not brought under control might be more than we can bear.

Mr. Chairman, is the minister aware that, with the position he has expressed here today, the position that his Prime Minister expressed in Africa, he is contributing to creating market uncertainty and to a financial crisis—in fact, he might create so much uncertainty that the carbon market could crash.

I would also like to hear his views on the comments made by Yvo de Boer, the Executive Secretary of the United Nation's Framework Convention on Climate Change.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I would certainly agree with Mr. de Boer that we are at a crossroads. We have seen greenhouse gases go up substantially since Kyoto was signed in December 1997, and that is a huge concern. The science is incredibly clear. It becomes clearer every day.

The fourth report of the panel, which came out this month, I think, is a call for action. If I could go to slide 4, you can see it requires everyone to be aboard. It is simply unconscionable to think that only the Annex I countries under the existing protocol can do the job themselves. We must get all the major emitters on board. That has to include the United States. It has to include China. It has to include India. It's because we believe and accept the science that we must act, and we can't act alone.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister to move away from his party line and from his initial presentations.

Mr. Yvo de Boer made a statement a few moments ago in Singapore. He believes, and I quote:

...it was the Kyoto Protocol and its legally binding emission reduction targets that spawned the present carbon market.

Is the minister aware that by refusing to establish absolute targets like those required under the Kyoto Protocol, and by refusing to implement binding targets, he is creating international financial uncertainty?

There is a risk the carbon market might crash in a few weeks, if the minister does not change his line and does not show strong leadership on the international scene, so that we have a clear mandate at the conclusion of the Conference of the Parties in Bali.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The carbon market in Europe certainly has crashed before, so it wouldn't be the first time.

The centrepiece of what you said is that real action must be taken. The centrepiece of what you said is that aspirational goals don't cut it, and I agree. I think we need to have mandatory, absolute reductions, and aspirational doesn't cut it. But we will not have succeeded in a next round unless we get the major emitters on board. We must get the big countries on board. We're prepared to accept an absolute reduction commitment for Canada. I think that's important, but we can't do it alone.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I understand what the minister is saying, but he has been working on this long enough to know that the viability of the carbon market depends on establishing emission caps.

Without emission caps, the Canadian carbon market is compromised. This means that Montreal will probably never see its carbon exchange come to be, because the minister is irresponsible and refuses to establish binding absolute targets, and refuses to show strong leadership internationally. He is compromising not only the potential existence of a carbon exchange in Montreal and in Canada, but what is worse, he is contributing to creating uncertainty, undermining confidence and compromising the strongest tool we have available, a tool that was established through significant compromise.

Environmentalists were naturally not very keen on a carbon market, but we succeeded in setting it up because we made compromises. Is the minister aware that the government is jeopardizing, one by one, all the tools and instruments that were set up under the Kyoto Protocol, the carbon market and the clean development mechanism, all because the government is being stubborn and believes Kyoto is a mistake?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Greenhouse gases have skyrocketed over the last 10 years, and I think that's a mistake. I think that's an error. I think that's unacceptable. And I think we have to stop it.

Here are the results: if Canada, the United States, Australia, and all the Annex I countries under Kyoto eliminate all the greenhouse gases, this is the result, and this is unacceptable. This is a failure, and we will not sign on to a failure of a regime. We are in the arena. We are taking real action.

It's very easy for you, sir, who was elected in 1997 and hasn't been able to make a difference on this file for 10 years. We are acting, and we're not going to take lectures from anyone on this issue around this table.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, the difference between the minister and myself is that for 10 years now I have been defending the Kyoto Protocol in the House. I believed in climate change, while the minister's colleagues in the Canadian Alliance and Reform Party denied its very existence. We had to wait 10 years before we could hear the minister paying lip service to climate change, recognizing the figures and reports published by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

We do not need any lectures from the government, which denied the very existence of climate change. If Bali is a failure, then the government, the Prime Minister and the minister will be the primary culprits not only for the failure of the Kyoto Protocol, but also for the failure of all instruments established under the Kyoto Protocol, including the clean development mechanism and carbon exchange.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have to do more than give fiery political speeches and write letters. I have to work to make a difference, and we are making a difference. Your opposition is noted.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, there is something I would like to ask the minister. Does he at least have the courage to do what Europe did on October 30 and submit a document clearly setting out Canada's position in Bali?

Rather than making PowerPoint presentations before the committee today, and treating us to a whole performance that does not take us any further, could he put Canada's position to be presented in Bali on paper, in black and white? Can he make a commitment before parliamentarians that today he will table a document setting out Canada's position, as the EU did on October 30?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Bigras.

Mr. Minister, a very brief reply, please.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We tabled an emission strategy in April, moving forward aggressively. On that strategy, or in line for what we'd like to see come out of Bali, I think we are on the exact same page as Yvo de Boer.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cullen, for 10 minutes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. There's obviously a great temptation of yours to take the politics into the personal as quickly as possible. I hope during my questioning you can avoid the temptation.

I won't challenge you or take responsibility for what happened under the previous Liberal regime. We have no argument there, and I don't think Canadians much care for that discussion anymore, to be frank, only because the responsibility that you bear is over the next number of years.

I want to talk about two important places. One is your own government's credibility on this file, or lack of credibility. I look for validators. I look for somebody who is able to say that the plan you present is actually significant and will get us to where you suggest.

The second piece I'd like to deal with is what you would deem to be a success at the upcoming Bali negotiations.

I recently attended a meeting in Toronto at which Tom d'Aquino spoke and talked about the policy chaos that still exists within Canada with respect to climate change. He was speaking of previous regimes and also your government.

Today in the House of Commons I asked you a question as to why the major emitters are cutting drastically their investments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. I asked you how many regulations you have actually employed as minister. Can you answer that question first? How many have you signed into law?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You asked me about five or six questions before that.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Let me ask you that one first. How many regulations have you signed into law?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll go to slide 15.

We are working very constructively with the industrial sector in Canada and with environmental groups. They have asked us to work with them on this, and we are. So we're going to take the time to get it right.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Minister, your government has been in power almost two years. You've been minister for more than a year. There have been many, many consultations and round tables. It's not as if this is a new subject for the government to deal with.

You have not signed a single regulation, sir, not a single regulation that would direct industry as to what their limits will actually be. Without those regulations, industries are not spending the money they need to spend in order to meet the lofty goals that you present.

I don't understand how you can be in the office this long—