Evidence of meeting #6 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Can I ask the deputy minister, has any money left this trust fund and been put into provincial hands?
3:50 p.m.
Ian Shugart Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The way the trust fund mechanism works is that when the trust fund is set up, it is out of the hands of the Government of Canada and is drawn down by the provinces. That is essentially a private matter between the individual jurisdiction and the manager, the trustee of the fund.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So you put over $1.5 billion into a fund and you're telling us you can't tell us whether any money has been drawn down?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I can tell you that for any province that wants the money, it's—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
You can't tell us whether any of the money of the $1.5 billion put into a trust fund has been drawn down. Is that right?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
You can ask the question ten times. I've already answered it.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
For example, are there any firm targets or conditions with respect to a cost to greenhouse gas reduction ratio involving drawing down this money?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
One of the things that your premier and my premier has been particularly strong on is that the Government of Ontario, my premier says, is not accountable to the federal government. It is accountable directly to the people of Ontario. That was the position of Mr. Martin and it's certainly our position as well.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Are you aware, Minister, of what the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser, said just two weeks ago in reference to your ecoTrust?
Let me quote what she said from an accountability perspective. She said:
We are [deeply] concerned about very large transfers being made purportedly for certain purposes, but when you look at the actual agreements, there are absolutely no conditions requiring the recipient to use the moneys for the purposes being announced.
Can you help us understand what your position is with respect to the Auditor General's concerns?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I have a background in the Government of Ontario, in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as well. I know it best. That's the riding I also represent. The way federalism has worked in this regard is that the Government of Ontario, the provincial government, is not accountable to the federal government; it's accountable to the legislature and to the people of the province of Ontario. In this regard, I can tell you, I have no reason to doubt the integrity and the management of my premier to deal with these funds.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Minister, why are public expenditures at the federal level--these are federal taxpayer dollars--considered to be private matters? What's the point of public accounts and public estimates if our expenditures can be private and you can't even tell us what's happened to $1.5 billion?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
There's only one taxpayer, so it's not the federal taxpayer or the provincial taxpayer or the territorial taxpayer or the municipal taxpayer. There's only one taxpayer, and each level of government is accountable to the people that elected it. The government's accounting treatment was acceptable because the government had entered into the agreements with the appropriate authorities, had authorization from Parliament to make the payments through trust with the passing of the Budget Implementation Act before the financial statements were finalized, and had not included in the trust agreements or letters to provinces and territories any condition to be eligible to receive these funds that would have been met by the provinces or territories subsequently and that had known the amount to the transfer. This is the way it worked under the previous government, and we feel particularly strongly about it. It's a different kind of federalism, where the provinces do not work for the federal government. They're elected by people in their jurisdiction and they're the people to whom they're accountable.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Minister, did your staff ever brief you on the fact that an agreement was not signed with Quebec under the former partnership fund because the environment minister of Quebec at that time refused to produce a list of climate change projects for federal scrutiny and approval? Have you ever been briefed on that?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
You asked a question; I want to answer it. If you want to make a speech, I'll turn it over to you.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I'm not aware of any funding that flowed to a provincial government to fight climate change. That's what my friend Gary Dewar of the NDP--
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Our government wasn't prepared to transfer money without conditions.
Do you know who the minister of the environment was in Quebec at the time?
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
If you don't trust the provincial governments and see the federal government's role as being the babysitter of the provincial governments...that's not my view of Canada.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Is that your response to the Auditor General's concerns, Minister? Maybe you should take it up with her.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
December 4th, 2007 / 3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Minister.
When we talk to officials, present officials of the Department of the Environment or not, some of them talk about program freezes, reviews, reorganizations and cuts.
Are you confirming that there have been cuts in recent weeks and recent months, particularly around September, and particularly in the Canadian Wildlife Service?
