Environment Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Well, we did. In fact, he was put to question twice yesterday as well by journalists, and after question period, according to CanWest, Natural Resources Minister Gary Lunn refused to explain why the report's release was delayed, and he said that all questions had to be sent to the Minister of the Environment.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

A point of order, Chair. The questioning from Mr. McGuinty is not what the minister is here for, and he's also answered that it's the Minister of Natural Resources. So I would encourage you, Chair, to make sure we stay on topic.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I would just remind members that this is about the estimates, so perhaps we can stick as closely to that as we possibly can. However, I do realize that questions can range fairly widely, and I think the minister is prepared to accept those, but not outside of his department.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Just in conclusion, Minister, then, you're not responsible for this report?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As it said in the paper, it's a Natural Resources Canada report, and I encourage you to place your questions to the Minister of Natural Resources. I have a big job on my hands as the Minister of the Environment and the Minister responsible for Parks Canada.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So Minister Lunn is wrong.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Correct.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Minister, can we turn to another series of measures and spending that has been deeply troubling for members of this committee for a while now? That is the whole question of the former partnership fund that we created as a government, that you and your government renamed as the Canada ecoTrust for Clean Air and Climate Change. You just referred to it a moment ago. Is that right?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That initiative is one for the provinces. It's a $1.5 billion initiative. I could give you a quote from Premier Doer who said that he never got any money from the federal government. That was not a reinvention, and that's backed by Mr. Doer.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Minister, I just want to go through something that was part of the 2005 economic and fiscal update, concerning the partnership fund. Of course, your party wasn't in power at the time.

One of the things the update said was that:

Taking into consideration the potential emission reductions, and the likely timing of the projects, the size of the fund could grow to $2 billion to $3 billion through investments in Budget 2006 and future budgets.

We know there was an Ontario-Canada agreement signed in 2005, and there was $538 million set aside for climate change initiatives. You also know, of course, that $325 million was set aside for Quebec. We know this money was booked as part of the partnership fund that year. However, this funding and the entire partnership fund was first cut in your 2006 budget, and then it reappeared. As one of my colleagues said, it was re-gifted in the 2007 budget as the ecoTrust fund.

Can I ask you directly, Minister, is it correct that at the end of the last fiscal year the total amount of $1.519 billion for this fund was placed in a trust account, and according to the 2007 budget, this funding is scheduled to flow over the next three years at roughly $500 million per year? Is that right?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You raised about seven questions before you got to your eighth. So what I would say is that the $1.5 billion of funding announced to the provinces was all new money. No province ever got one dollar of funding from the federal government with respect to the issue of climate change and clean air. This is backed up by Premier Gary Doer, who will tell you that.

One of the first engagements I had as Minister of the Environment was a recognition that we had to engage the provinces. When you talk about a partnership fund, that had nothing to do with the initiatives we took this winter.

I can say with great enthusiasm that my premier was particularly happy with the investment.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm sure he was, Minister.

Can you tell us, was the $1.519 billion placed in a trust account?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You stated on May 29 of this year, just a few months ago, “that money has left the federal treasury”.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's in the trust fund.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That is, it was “paid for out of last year's budget, and it has already left the federal treasury, so the cheque is more than in the mail”; you said, “the cheque has actually been cashed. It was $1.519 billion.”

Minister, did you mean to imply that the provinces had already received the total amount of this funding?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No, it was in the trust fund.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Has the government signed any MOUs with the provinces for this funding, and if so, what criteria then exist in order for a project to qualify?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

It's fully available to the provinces whenever they want it. The two criteria are that it has to fight climate change and it has to fight smog and pollution.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Have you signed any MOUs?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The way the trust fund works, we don't have to.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So has any money been disbursed?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As much money as the provinces have asked for.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Has any money been disbursed of the $1.519 billion?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

As much money as the provinces have—