Environment Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

How about a straight answer?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

That's the answer you've been getting.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Can I ask the deputy minister, has any money left this trust fund and been put into provincial hands?

[Ian Shugart, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

The way the trust fund mechanism works is that when the trust fund is set up, it is out of the hands of the Government of Canada and is drawn down by the provinces. That is essentially a private matter between the individual jurisdiction and the manager, the trustee of the fund.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So you put over $1.5 billion into a fund and you're telling us you can't tell us whether any money has been drawn down?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I can tell you that for any province that wants the money, it's—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You can't tell us whether any of the money of the $1.5 billion put into a trust fund has been drawn down. Is that right?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You can ask the question ten times. I've already answered it.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

For example, are there any firm targets or conditions with respect to a cost to greenhouse gas reduction ratio involving drawing down this money?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

One of the things that your premier and my premier has been particularly strong on is that the Government of Ontario, my premier says, is not accountable to the federal government. It is accountable directly to the people of Ontario. That was the position of Mr. Martin and it's certainly our position as well.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Are you aware, Minister, of what the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser, said just two weeks ago in reference to your ecoTrust?

Let me quote what she said from an accountability perspective. She said:

We are [deeply] concerned about very large transfers being made purportedly for certain purposes, but when you look at the actual agreements, there are absolutely no conditions requiring the recipient to use the moneys for the purposes being announced.

Can you help us understand what your position is with respect to the Auditor General's concerns?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have a background in the Government of Ontario, in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as well. I know it best. That's the riding I also represent. The way federalism has worked in this regard is that the Government of Ontario, the provincial government, is not accountable to the federal government; it's accountable to the legislature and to the people of the province of Ontario. In this regard, I can tell you, I have no reason to doubt the integrity and the management of my premier to deal with these funds.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Minister, why are public expenditures at the federal level--these are federal taxpayer dollars--considered to be private matters? What's the point of public accounts and public estimates if our expenditures can be private and you can't even tell us what's happened to $1.5 billion?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

There's only one taxpayer, so it's not the federal taxpayer or the provincial taxpayer or the territorial taxpayer or the municipal taxpayer. There's only one taxpayer, and each level of government is accountable to the people that elected it. The government's accounting treatment was acceptable because the government had entered into the agreements with the appropriate authorities, had authorization from Parliament to make the payments through trust with the passing of the Budget Implementation Act before the financial statements were finalized, and had not included in the trust agreements or letters to provinces and territories any condition to be eligible to receive these funds that would have been met by the provinces or territories subsequently and that had known the amount to the transfer. This is the way it worked under the previous government, and we feel particularly strongly about it. It's a different kind of federalism, where the provinces do not work for the federal government. They're elected by people in their jurisdiction and they're the people to whom they're accountable.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Minister, did your staff ever brief you on the fact that an agreement was not signed with Quebec under the former partnership fund because the environment minister of Quebec at that time refused to produce a list of climate change projects for federal scrutiny and approval? Have you ever been briefed on that?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm not aware of any opportunities of funding--

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Because you--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

You asked a question; I want to answer it. If you want to make a speech, I'll turn it over to you.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Fair enough. Go ahead.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm not aware of any funding that flowed to a provincial government to fight climate change. That's what my friend Gary Dewar of the NDP--

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Our government wasn't prepared to transfer money without conditions.

Do you know who the minister of the environment was in Quebec at the time?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

If you don't trust the provincial governments and see the federal government's role as being the babysitter of the provincial governments...that's not my view of Canada.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Is that your response to the Auditor General's concerns, Minister? Maybe you should take it up with her.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Mr. Bigras, it's your turn.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister.

When we talk to officials, present officials of the Department of the Environment or not, some of them talk about program freezes, reviews, reorganizations and cuts.

Are you confirming that there have been cuts in recent weeks and recent months, particularly around September, and particularly in the Canadian Wildlife Service?