Environment Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So if we can prove that somebody discharged pollutants into water, do you think they should be subject to potential prison sentences?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

I think they can be made available, yes, so long as the presumption of innocence is in place. That's our concern.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

With respect, I think that all of the strict liability offences in which due diligence is a defence still require the crown to prove that the offence has been committed. But they can't require the crown to prove due diligence or lack thereof, because that information is in the possession of the accused only. Do you understand what I mean by that?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

I do, and I really think that all the crown has to show is that the substance entered the water. That's it.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's right.

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

And that's not enough in our free and democratic society, where our charter, at section 11, strongly puts into our Canadian country that we have the right to be presumed innocent.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'll disagree with you a little bit. Don't you think the crown also has to prove that a particular vessel was responsible for the substance entering the water?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

Now we're talking about the actus reus and the mens rea. I'd like to see the crown prove the mens rea before we have the imprisonment attached.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If I'm out of time, I'll try to come back to it.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You are out of time, but I gave you a little extra time because it was an interesting point.

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll just cede my time to Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In fact, do you realize or accept that mens rea is a legal requirement that is satisfied if someone has acted negligently or in some cases even carelessly?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

If that can be shown, I don't have a problem with that.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

So, for example, if someone's charged with careless driving, you're okay with the possibility that they might get prison?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

Well, I think it's hard to look at examples and pull them out of the air. I look at a murderer, for example, who may have the smoking gun in hand, and he's still afforded the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's right, but if he has negligently killed someone, he'll be convicted, won't he?

[Kaity Arsoniadis Stein]

He will, and--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Unless he can prove--

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Chairman, now is not the time to extrapolate. It is important that we focus on Bill C-16, and, although Mr. Woodworth is asking some very relevant questions, with all due respect to him, they do go beyond the scope of our study pertaining to this bill.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right.

I agree, I'll move on to something else and if I may, I'll return to Mr.--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Would you please go through the chair.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's what I said. I started by saying “Mr. Chairman”. I wasn't addressing Mr. Woodworth.

[An Hon. Member]

No, no, not at all.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Moreover, I do not think that he interpreted this as a personal remark.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

All right. We will continue. There's no problem.