Environment Committee on May 28th, 2009

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

No.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Further, with respect to consultation, when you're writing your COSEWIC reports, to what extent do you consult with first nations communities to ensure that traditional aboriginal knowledge is considered through the report process?

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

There are two means by which that takes place at present, and one is a work in progress. In the first instance, it's through wildlife management boards, which are, of course, established by land claims agreements. They have an equal responsibility for reviewing draft reports and ensuring that the information in them represents the best available information, which would include, from their perspective, an aboriginal perspective.

The second means is through the aboriginal traditional knowledge.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Could you give me an example? I'm just trying to understand to what extent, again, first nations communities are consulted and you actually consider traditional knowledge in the writing of the report.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

This is what I'm leading to for my second point. We have an aboriginal traditional knowledge, or ATK, subcommittee. It was established in 2001. It was only in 2007 that the ministerial appointments to the subcommittee were made. Since then, the subcommittee has made extraordinary progress, in my mind, to develop a protocol by which ATK would be obtained and incorporated in status reports.

It's taken a while in part because in order to do that across the country, one requires approval, for example, from aboriginal elders. COSEWIC has sponsored and held three elders workshops to date. There will be a fourth. We hope by November of this year to have a protocol by which ATK can be obtained for any species.

That's not to say that we have not obtained it to date. We have for the polar bear, as one good example, for which a secondary contract was let to obtain ATK specifically for the polar bear, and we have done that on other occasions as well. We're currently doing it for the Dolly Varden. We're currently doing it for Atlantic salmon and woodland caribou. We have a precedent for doing that on a piecemeal basis, by means of gathering ATK for the purpose of assessing a particular species. What I was describing to you earlier is the development, and hopefully the acceptance, of a protocol that could be applied to any species.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Is it fair to say that currently--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Sorry, your time has expired.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

--ATK is not sufficient, to your mind?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Please give just a quick response.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

With all due respect, that question requires some context. For species for which ATK is vital, I feel it has been relevant. This is an ongoing process. Can it be improved? Absolutely.

Mr. Chair, I don't mind responding to the previous question from the member if it would help the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

With all due respect to Mr. Watson, who has the final round of questions, I think we do need to continue on with Mr. Watson's round for five minutes.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. If I don't use my full allotment of time, I may be splitting it with Mr. Woodworth, my colleague.

Thank you to the witness for appearing.

Coming back to your criticism of the rejection of your nominee for an appointment to COSEWIC, when was the nominee for appointment declined? Was it January, February, March, April, May?

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

It was declined at the end of February.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

It was the end of February. And your next call for nominations, you said, is in another month?

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

I will initiate one, but we will not be able to make a decision on it till November.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

The time, then, between when the appointment was declined and the initiation of a call for nominations, by my count, is at least three months or three and a half months.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

The initial letter regarding appointments was made in May of last year and we received a decision on it in late February of this year. We anticipate no change in the future. Even if we are able to reach a decision on a nominee in November, it might be yet another calendar year for an appointment to be made.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Has the choice of COSEWIC, then, been to try to reverse the decision rather than initiate another call for nominations?

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

Let me clarify what I wrote to the minister.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

I asked a simple question. Is it the choice of COSEWIC to fight the decision of the minister or to accept and move on and make a new call for appointments? In other words, Mr. Hutchings, the three-and-a-half month delay, if you will, in terms of a call for new nominations rests entirely with COSEWIC, not with the government.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

Let me clarify something you mentioned earlier. I did not criticize the minister's decision. One of the roles of COSEWIC is to advise the minister, so I would have said it was inadvisable.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

He's commenting on a point of order, Mr. Chair, a debate on a point of order rather than my questioning here.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

You mentioned it, sir, in your opening remarks, in your preamble to that question, so I simply wish to clarify.

Secondly, it was COSEWIC's perspective that I wished to have a meeting with the minister. I did not state verbally or on paper what I felt the ramifications were, because I felt that would not be appropriate. Rather, I requested a meeting with the minister during which these ramifications could be discussed.

Is it COSEWIC's position to fight this decision? No. I've already stated earlier for the record that I accept that it's the minister's discretion—

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Then why the delay in a new call for nominations, Mr. Hutchings? That call rests entirely with you and not the Government of Canada.

[Prof. Jeffrey Hutchings]

COSEWIC makes its decisions and evaluates potential nominees at its biannual species assessment meetings. The next one of those takes place in November.