Environment Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hyer, for being here.

As you've mentioned, Bill C-311 is virtually identical to Bill C-377. There are some minor changes in definition. You've called it the “Copenhagen bill”. Mr. Layton, your leader, called it his “impossible dream.” The testimony we heard was that it was a poorly written bill, and it was uncosted. Mr. Layton recommended that it be costed, as did Mr. Bramley. More recently, Ms. Libby Davies said bills like this should be costed.

The world has change since Bill C-377 was introduced and dealt with about a year and a half ago. I'm sure you're very aware of some of those major changes.

We have a global recession and it's a very difficult time economically for a number of countries. Canada entered last; we'll be the first to come out. Canada is one of the strongest economies in the world, but we're also being affected dramatically by the global recession.

We also have a new President in the United States, who has made the environment a priority. Things have changed now in that we have a clean energy dialogue ongoing with President Obama's administration. That's progressing in a very positive way. That wasn't present before. Both Canada and the United States agree that all of the major emitters have to be part of a global solution as we head toward Copenhagen.

Bill C-311, as you said, is virtually identical to Bill C-377. What changes would you be willing to make today to Bill C-311 to make sure that you get consensus around this table?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Those are good questions. I don't accept all of your assumptions and I won't natter about the history of them here today, but I would like to say the following.

This bill is very straightforward. It sets science-based targets. It requires the government to publish a plan. It ensures that the government has the tools to meet the targets and accomplishes them on time. Whatever the costs are, whether they're positive or negative, and there are many like Nicholas Stern--

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Hyer, you're not answering my question. My question was very direct: what amendments, what changes would you be willing to accept on Bill C-311 today to get consensus around this table? You've provided urgency, so what changes would you be willing to make?

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You asked two questions. You asked a question about costing, and you asked about---

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I made a comment about costing.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Can I comment on it?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I'd like you to answer my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

It is Mr. Warawa's time, and he has a question that he wants you to answer first. Perhaps you could answer the question he has put to you.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The broad answer to your question is that I really believe what I said about cooperation among parties. If anybody from any party, including your party, can come forward with amendments that make this bill better they should be considered. I don't have any partisan leanings on this bill. I'd like see it be made the most effective bill it can be.

I do think it's important to keep it as simple as possible. So if amendments clarified things, that would be a good thing; if they complicated things or delayed the bill, I would not be in favour of them.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

So you are in favour of trying to get consensus, and you would accept amendments to your bill.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

You're aware that Copenhagen international negotiations are ongoing. We are working with our partners in the United States, our biggest trading partner in the world. There are ongoing negotiations with all the international partners. There is a move to see all the major emitters part of the solution, because it's a global problem, not just Canada's.

You've humorously called it the Copenhagen bill, but in fact the Copenhagen bill is going to look for a global solution. What you're proposing here is putting the cart before the horse. You're trying to bind Canada going into negotiations, and you're not giving the government the opportunity to negotiate. You're putting Canada in a position that would not be in the interests of the environment.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My response is to reiterate that the European Union, the United Kingdom, many states, some provinces, many municipalities, and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities have all indicated that this is a good starting point, and it's the minimum starting point that we should go to Copenhagen with.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

You're not answering my question, Mr. Hyer.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I do understand--

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You have a point of order, Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Out of due respect for the witnesses, would it be possible to limit the exchanges to ones that allow the witnesses to answer the questions? Let us have the committee member ask the question and then leave it to the witness to answer. I think that this would be more constructive than exchanges that resemble a game of ping-pong.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Members are urged to display courtesy and fairness in questioning witnesses.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hear that clearly, but I have a limited amount of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You do.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

I don't want Mr. Hyer to use my time. I want him to answer my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

In Marleau and Montpetit, on page 863, it says that witnesses must answers all questions put to them by the committees.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Is Mr. Hyer aware of the emission targets for Japan? He referenced Japan.

[Bruce Hyer, NDP, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm not.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

They are using the 2005 base year, with a 15% reduction by 2020. Canada's is 20%, so it's a tougher target in Canada.

Are you aware of what Australia's target is?