Evidence of meeting #17 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm sorry. I work with Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. so I'm not with--
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
--I understand, to this integrated management plan. Are you aware of that?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes. We're working with DFO on the plan.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Again, I would have to ask my colleagues from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to be able to provide that. Our responsibilities are with respect to oil and gas activity and working with NEB as the regulator for the Beaufort, or the Delta, or elsewhere in the north.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
The federal leases, though, have been fast-tracked and sold, have they not? Or are they still under consideration? Does anyone know?
There was $2.2 billion on the table here two years ago.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There is a regulatory regime under an act called COGOA, under which parcels of land or areas at sea, in the Beaufort Sea or elsewhere offshore, can be made available if companies desire to make bids. There's an annual process by which we open up expressions of interest. That starts at the beginning of the calendar year. Following expressions of interest, there is a bidding process.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Are there any leases now in place?
There are leases throughout the north, both onshore and offshore. I think the two leases that you're mentioning were from two years ago, where BP and Imperial Oil bid for two leases much deeper offshore than we've had. But we've had leases in the offshore since the 1970s.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So from an INAC and DFO perspective and from the question of cumulative environmental assessment, are you aware that the leases that have been granted actually embrace and straddle some of the most sensitive areas, such as, for example, bowhead whale feeding zones, the beluga shelf break summer zones, and the ringed seal migration zones? Are your federal departments aware that these leases that have already been granted embrace some of the most ecologically sensitive land in the Beaufort?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
We've done a fair amount of research in this area and we've actually established a tool, available online, that identifies those areas that are sensitive. The regulators, when looking at activity that might take place, whether it's seismic or eventually further activity, would take that into consideration. There has to be an environmental assessment before any of that kind of activity takes place in terms of drilling.
At this point, the only activity that has been taking place is seismic, and that seismic activity has been done in full consultation with the Inuvialuit, who have signed impact benefit plans. They also have wildlife monitors that are included as part of the crew, so that if there is any detection of wildlife, operations cease to ensure that there's no disruption.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
So when the government says to us that Canada's environmental regime, for example, that embracing the Beaufort, which is contiguous to the Northwest Territories and is part of the cumulative environmental assessment that ought to be looked at going forward...when the government tells us that regime is more stringent than in the United States, for example, it's hard to understand that, given that, for example, in Canada, we don't require an environmental assessment at the licence, bidding, and auction stage, do we, as they do in the United States?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
You'd have to talk to the NEB, really, because those are rules under NEB. But the understanding is that to move forward beyond the seismic activity, that does require a full environmental assessment.
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
Right, but not before the licensing, as they do in the United States?
In the United States, when BP bid for the licence to exploit oil in the Gulf of Mexico, at the point at which they were bidding for the licence, they had to prepare a 90-page environmental assessment. In Canada, it doesn't work that way, does it?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Mr. McGuinty, your time has expired. And I question some of the relevance on some of those questions since we're here to study chapter 4 of the Auditor General's report, which never touched on those areas.
Liberal
Liberal
David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON
No, no problem. I appreciate that. But if you want to talk about relevance, I'm pleased to enter into dialogue with you.
Conservative
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to welcome the Auditor General, the Commissioner as well as both public servants.
Seeing this report today is rather disconcerting. It gives me the impression that there are two classes of citizens in Canada, depending upon whether or not one lives in a region covered by an agreement. As you said, some 30% of the territory is not covered by agreements. You told us, Mrs. Fraser, that this is an area nearly as large as Newfoundland and Labrador. It is quite significant.
I would first like to know how many people we are talking about. How many citizens are not covered by agreements?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Unfortunately, I do not know the exact number of people. Obviously, it is a few thousand.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
All right.
Would the department's representative know the exact number?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Those two territories are the Akaitcho and Dehcho territories. Together, they number probably less than 15,000 people.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Very well.
I am struck by the fact that we act on a case-by-case basis, which looks like improvisation to me.
Mrs. Fraser, after looking at the situation and seeing that there is no management plan and that the implementation of a sustainable development policy is on a case-by-case basis, do you have the feeling that this is just improvisation? The first victims are the residents of those territories. Am I right in saying that this is a case of improvisation pure and simple?