Environment Committee on Nov. 17th, 2010

[Matthew Firth]

A lot of that ranges from simple environmental actions that we take within the workplace. For example, we negotiate environmental provisions into collective agreements. We work to establish workplace environment committees, green stewards, workplace environment policies, workplace--

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I understand.

You are talking about the environment in a kind of limited sense, I guess. Would those kinds of things be covered by this bill? When we talk about this bill, we're talking about the broader environment, the air quality, and damage done by an industry to the natural environment.

I don't know if you understand where I'm coming from. I'm trying to understand whether the word “environment” in your title has to do more with the workplace environment, which is outside the scope of this bill, versus the general pollution that we see in the broader environment around us.

[Matthew Firth]

No, I would disagree with you. I don't--

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm not saying that's my point of view. I'm just asking if it is possible to look at it that way.

[Matthew Firth]

That's sort of where I was going with my initial response. I was looking at actions within the workplace, but that is where we start and then we go out from there, so that we are looking at broader environmental considerations, as an organization.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Like particulate matter in the air or pollution of waterways in and around government office buildings?

[Matthew Firth]

In terms of broader environmental issues, water, climate change, sure, we do work in those areas, but by particulate matter, I'm not exactly sure how specific you want me to be with respect to the nature of--

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It's okay. I better understand the work that you do now.

You were mentioning Canada's very poor global environmental record compared to other countries. You mentioned a figure. We're 156th.... Do you recall what that figure was?

[Matthew Firth]

There is the climate change index, which affects about 57 countries.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In terms of occupational health and safety, where do we rank on the global scale?

[Matthew Firth]

I'm not exactly sure of the precise ranking, but I would think it would be better than that.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Some witnesses who came before the committee said that one of their primary objections with the bill was that we already have a democratic process to create environmental laws and regulations. They and the rest of society work within this process and they felt that this bill was sort of a back-door mechanism for making law outside the democratic process. They had an objection in principle to that. How do you see it?

[Matthew Firth]

No, I don't object to that. It seems to me that this proposed law or bill is being taken forward through the normal channels, is it not?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes, but for example, the way it's written, as I understand it, it gives the power to a resident or citizen or whoever to take civil action against the company that is following the law or following regulations that were made democratically—not maybe in a perfect democratic system, but that were made democratically. I want to gauge your reaction to that argument.

[Matthew Firth]

It sounds like a similar question to what I was just asked previously, and I was advised by the chair to submit a legal opinion from CUPE's lawyer, so I'll.....

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay, that's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Your time has expired.

I do encourage you, Mr. Firth, if you're more comfortable with having your lawyer prepare a response on behalf of CUPE, that it would be the appropriate way to respond to the questions that are being asked.

Moving on.... Mr. Calkins, you have five minutes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I don't know whether you were asked this question directly, Mr. Firth. Did your committee, your leadership, in any way consult or ask for a legal opinion with respect to the potential impact of this bill on your membership? Did you ask for a second party...?

Nobody has done it? So you haven't done a study as to whether or not—

[Matthew Firth]

No.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

—the implications of this proposed legislation, if it was brought to bear...what impact it would have on your membership?

[Matthew Firth]

No.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

No? Okay.

I'm going to go back to use some of the numbers you used and just draw some comparisons, and I'm going to ask you some questions.

You said that Canada ranked 46 out of 163 countries, with a score of 66.4 on.... This is that Yale University study—

[Matthew Firth]

Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

—to which you gave a C grade. You said it puts us in the middle of the pack.

Well, actually, 46th out of 163 is the 72nd percentile. Even if you're using mean or median averages, this would mean we're well above the middle of the pack, which I guess would be around 81st or 82nd.

We're behind developing nations such as Mexico and Romania. According to the International Monetary Fund, the Mexican GDP is $13,000, the Romanian is $11,000. Are you arguing that maybe Canada needs to slow its economy down in favour of environmental considerations and move towards a GDP similar to Mexico's and Romania's?

[Matthew Firth]

No, I—