Evidence of meeting #40 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kristen Courtney  Committee Researcher

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank my colleague, Mr. Woodworth, for not using up his full eight minutes. I thought that was a very good example, Chair.

This clause refers to aboriginal rights. It says:

For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from the protection provided for existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada by the recognition and affirmation of those rights in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Chair, in our discussions over the last few days, what came up was the shock that we had not heard from first nations. This greatly impacts first nations. It impacts agreements with first nations. It possibly affects treaties, because we heard that Bill C-469 would retroactively go after agreements and treaties. So if any resident or entity is felt to be in violation, or if this concerned any Canadian--excuse me, “resident” or “entity”--an action could be launched.

Chair, what clause 4 makes clear is that nothing in the act affects existing aboriginal treaty rights protected under the Constitution Act. Therefore, clause 4 is a common practice in federal statutes.

What it does do is create uncertainty. As I said, it's common in federal statutes that reiterate that Parliament does not intend to narrow, extinguish, or otherwise interfere with constitutionally protected aboriginal rights or treaties. If it's already there and it's dealt with, then this creates uncertainty. It's not needed, because any law that is inconsistent with the constitution is invalid. So the moment that you place this in Bill C-469, it creates uncertainty. It's unnecessary and it shouldn't be there. It should be struck. That would be the appropriate way of dealing with this.

Now, in the interests of time, I could move a motion that it be struck, or we can leave it in place and vote against it. But we do not want to create uncertainty with aboriginal rights so therefore, in the interests of time and given our desire to see this be reported back to the House before the Christmas break, my question for the member, through the chair, is, would she accept that this be struck from her bill, Bill C-469?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

You can't do that. You'd have to vote against the clause.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Well, as a friendly.... Well, it probably couldn't be a friendly amendment. It would have to be—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

No. You're making an amendment and I'm going to rule that amendment out of order. You have to vote against the clause if you want to remove it. You'll have to convince the opposition members to support you in your quest to negate the clause, and that happens through a vote against.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

I'm not naive, Chair. I think they will be consistent in supporting this and unfortunately not supporting the rights that exist for first nations. I'm quite concerned about the uncertainty this creates.

Chair, the alternative, which I'm sure would be in order, would be to call for witnesses from first nations. But again, that may not be practical, because we would like to see this reported back before the Christmas break. I will cease my comments and look forward to the vote.

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay. I'm going to--

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Is that a point of order on yourself, Mr. Warawa?

5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

No, my time has ended, has it not?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

There are four minutes left.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Oh, well, then, I can share my time. I would like to do that with any of my members who have questions.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

I see Mr. Woodworth's hand.

Just for information, we have called the AFN to the committee before. We're done with witnesses. We're studying clause-by-clause and moving on.

Mr. Woodworth.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

On the point of order that was raised, I don't recall the motion saying that one member speaks for the party.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

No. You have four minutes left.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I don't think it's a case of sharing time; it's a case of time being left, and I'm on the list. So if you don't mind, I'll approach it that way, but I don't think I will take four minutes.

I'm not entirely sure it was clear when Mr. Warawa spoke that this provision does not protect the rights of aboriginals acquired through non-constitutionally arranged items or arrangements with first nations. This bill applies to decisions of government departments--so to any decisions of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs relating to both reserve lands and first nations individuals. It applies to decisions related to reserve lands, and therefore could apply to decisions of first nations relating to reserve lands under the First Nations Land Management Act, self-governing agreements, or other arrangements.

I want it to be crystal clear, for those who are listening at home at least, that this clause 4 does not protect the rights of aboriginals who are coming out of voluntary agreements or actions by the federal government. It's only those that are the result of a constitutional guarantee.

I might also say, for what it's worth, that technically you don't need clause 4 to protect rights that are constitutionally guaranteed to aboriginals. Although I know it's a common provision in federal statutes, it really isn't necessary. It is not necessary to do the job it tries to do, and it's not adequate to provide complete protection to aboriginals.

Thank you.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Mr. Armstrong, you had your hand up. There are two minutes left.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I'm fine.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Good.

Moving along, I have Ms. Duncan and Mr. Scarpaleggia.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, the members have very accurately pointed out that it is a provision common in Canadian law, and it is of course in the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, which we reviewed just last year, and at no time did the government suggest that it be removed. I believe it should be in there as a protection for first nations constitutional rights.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Scarpaleggia.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

My question is more for information. Is it possible to make amendments to these clauses on the fly?

5:15 p.m.

An hon. member

Sure.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

When one proposes an amendment, does that mean each party has eight minutes to speak to it? Okay. Thanks. That's all I wanted to know.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Seeing no other speakers, I will ask if clause 4 shall carry.