Evidence of meeting #40 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kristen Courtney  Committee Researcher

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have thought about the various arguments that have been made around the table and the validity of many of them: the validity of the idea of spending more time on the contentious clauses and the validity of each person having an opportunity to express themselves and the concerns of their constituencies. I note that the original motion allows for 90 hours of debate--if each party took its full five minutes for each of the clauses it would be approximately 90 hours of debate--so that would restrict debate to 20 minutes per clause. Clearly some clauses won't warrant that, but some may warrant more.

So I would like to propose an amendment to the motion so that there would be eight minutes per party. Other than that, the motion would be the same.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay. So we're changing five to eight and the amendment is moved by Ms. Murray.

Mr. Woodworth, you may talk to the amendment, .

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I think it's a step in the right direction. I don't think it cures the problem, but I appreciate Ms. Murray's effort, and I'm inclined to support it. I will support the amendment but not the motion.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay. Seeing no other questions, I'll call the question. All those in favour?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

That's carried unanimously, so we're back to the main motion as amended.

I have Mr. Warawa.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

I would say to Ms. Duncan, in light of what Ms. Murray has reminded us of, that there is a short period of time and a lot of work to do. We possibly have Monday and Wednesday of next week. Today is almost burned up. Unfortunately, we did not get into clause-by-clause as we had hoped to.

Will Ms. Murray accept a friendly amendment that Bill C-469 be reported back to the House before the Christmas break?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Ms. Duncan.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

No, Mr. Chair, I will not. I believe the proposal put forward with the amendment by Ms. Murray is a reasonable time period. Because we have wasted three days, unfortunately, I don't think we're going to finish before Christmas. But if we are fair and expeditious we can finish soon after we return from the Christmas break.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

In that light, I don't think it's realistic so we will be opposing it...but no more speakers.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay. I have no other speakers. With that, all those in favour of the motion as amended?

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We will move on to the next order on the agenda, which is clause-by-clause.

(On clause 3--Interpretation)

Time limits now apply. We've had substantial debate on clause 3.

Mr. Woodworth is next, representing the Conservatives.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you. I'm not representing the Conservatives, Mr. Speaker, I'm representing myself--

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Nor am I the Speaker.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

--and I'm a little worried that I may use up all the time that has been allocated to the Conservatives, but I do want to try to express myself about this and hope that my colleagues will forgive me if I do use up the time. Also, I don't remember extensive debate on this clause. I do recall Mr. Warawa speaking to it.

I would like to make a number of points. First of all, and I won't dwell on this because...well, someone said to me that nobody was listening when I spoke earlier anyway, so maybe I should dwell on it, but I'll try not to go on too long on it.

First of all, the preamble to clause 3 states that “[t]his Act must be interpreted consistently with existing and emerging principles of environmental law”. I believe that there is no definition in the act of what is meant by “emerging principles”. It is quite an ambiguous phrase in that it may mean principles that are emerging as of today or principles that are emerging as of whenever a case hits the courts or is decided. It may mean principles that are emerging in Canadian courts. It may mean principles that are emerging in courts around the world. Or it may mean principles that are emerging in academic circles.

To me, it's very inappropriate. I'll just quickly repeat that from the perspective of a conscientious lawyer, it's a nightmare clause. From the perspective of other lawyers, perhaps, it's a dream clause, because it can mean absolutely anything or almost nothing.

Apart from that, I'd like to comment on the issue of the principle of sustainable development, which I think occupied most of Mr. Warawa's comments previously. I'd like to approach it from a different point of view. I don't wish to simply repeat what Mr. Warawa has said. Rather, I would point out that in clause 3, “the principle of sustainable development” is now a coequal principle, along with four others. I'll speak about the others in a moment.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that with this act, for the very first time since it became a primary or paramount principle of Canadian environmental law, the principle of sustainable development will no longer be primary or paramount in Canadian environmental law. It will simply be one of five. A lawyer will know that this arrangement allows for a judicial officer to pick and choose and weight and unweight between principles. Consequently, I think that wording introduces an amazing shift in Canadian environmental law.

Apart from that, the principle of sustainable development as it is defined in this act is quite different from what we might have seen up to this point. We have to refer back to the act. If you look at the definition of sustainable development in clause 2, it is “development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs”.

Now, this has a very poetic sound to it, but in fact, previously--and I'll give you what came from the World Summit on Sustainable Development in 2002--it was acknowledged that the principle or the concept of sustainable development comprised three pillars: economic development, social development, and environmental protection.

The definition in this bill does not spell that out. Every statute is interpreted as if it means something. This is an important point for those around the table who are not lawyers.

When you have a statute and a judge is trying to figure out what it means, the judge has to try to read meaning into it. So a judge is going to have to try to determine why it is that this definition of sustainable development doesn't refer, for example, to economic development or doesn't specifically refer to social development. It must mean something different. That's the conclusion that might well be reached.

I would like to go back to something I mentioned earlier, lest it be lost. This definition of the principle of sustainable development does not include the qualifier “cost-effective on preventive measures”, which has been already adopted in Canadian law. It introduces a new meaning, and it'll be heck to pay to try to figure out what to do with existing measures that refer to that clause. It also does not use the qualifier “serious or irreversible” regarding environmental damages, which is necessary to trigger the precautionary principle. Both of those phrases are accepted globally, and I refer you to the Rio statement on that principle.

Apart from that, there are other principles in this provision that are ill-defined. The idea of intergenerational equity, for example, is found nowhere else in federal law. It is, in a sense, referred to in principle 3 of the Rio declaration, but in an entirely different formulation, which reads, “The right to development must be fulfilled so as to equitably meet developmental and environmental needs of present and future generations”.

So this doesn't include development. It must mean something different. It must mean not to refer to development--or at least that possibility is out there.

The principle of environmental justice is referred to in American law, but again with a different definition than the one that appears in this bill. The Environmental Protection Agency in the United States states that environmental justice “will be achieved when everyone enjoys the same degree of protection from environmental and health hazards and equal access to the decision-making process to have a healthy environment...”.

Now, I will simply conclude by saying in my 45 seconds remaining that this was an incomplete analysis of the problems that exist in this clause. It was much too hurried to really get the points across and a totally inadequate way for a serious and conscientious legislator to try to debate such a far-reaching and important bill.

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Are there any other comments?

Ms. Duncan.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I don't really want to debate what the member said, and I appreciate his opinion. I would just point out that the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, which has been in place in Canada since about 1984, also references these other principles. I'm a little puzzled as to why the member would want to reference only the sustainable development principle.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Point of order--

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

There is nothing in Canadian—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Woodworth?

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I try not to raise points of order, but now the member is asking a question of me publicly which I am going to be prevented from answering because I've used up all of my time. In fact, there is an answer for the member, I believe, but I'd have to look for it.

But I think that at the very least it's a little unfair for her to be questioning me, at least by name. It's bad enough that she can disagree with me and that I don't have a right to reply to her disagreement because I'm out of time, but I would ask, Chair, that if this kind of game-playing is going to go on that at least I not be mentioned by name without giving me a right to reply specifically.

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

That is not a point of order, so Ms. Duncan....

But try to be respectful in this situation where the chance for rebuttal has been removed.

Ms. Duncan.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I won't take up my time referencing what is in Canadian law. I'm simply going to call for the vote on this amendment.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

It's my job to call for the vote and I will if I have no more names on the speakers list.

Seeing none, I'm going to call the question. The response will be that it's carried, it's negated, we stand it, or it's on division.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

A recorded vote, Chair.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We'll have a recorded vote. Shall clause 3 carry?

(Clause 3 agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(On clause 4—Aboriginal rights)

I'll read clause 4:

For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from the protection provided for existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada by the recognition and affirmation of those rights in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Are there any speakers?

Mr. Warawa or Mr. Woodworth? Who wants it?

Mr. Warawa.