Environment Committee on April 13th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Warawa, you can bring us home on the seven-minute round.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, National Chief Atleo, Elder Marcel, and Mr. McNeely. I appreciate your being here, each of you.

There are three things I would like to ask, and probably I don't have enough time. They concern consultation, a little discussion on whether the timeframes within SARA are realistic, and then the socio-economic factors being considered. First, I'll deal with consultation.

Elder Marcel, it was wonderful meeting you, almost a year ago now in, I believe, Fort Chipewyan, or perhaps Fort McMurray. I forget where it was, but it was a pleasure meeting you and hearing your testimony.

When was the previous time you had a standing committee of the environment actually coming and meeting with the elders, and consulting and hearing from you, from your experience, the traditional knowledge? When was the previous time that this happened?

[Pat Marcel]

Previous to that, I don't think we've.... I don't remember this committee, anyway, being there.

As far as Alberta is concerned, they leave most of the consultation to a third party, so you never see the Alberta government in the community.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Elder Marcel, you're sharing with us that this was the first time that you can ever remember a standing committee of Parliament coming to listen to you and consult with you?

[Pat Marcel]

Well, you've been in the community of Fort Chipewyan; I think it was last summer.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

We were there, but was there a time previous to that which you can remember?

[Pat Marcel]

I can't remember. I don't think you were ever there.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Well, definitely the federal government needs to do better, can do better, and I think our coming there and listening to you was a step in the right direction. Would you agree?

[Pat Marcel]

I agree. But the thing that this committee has to understand is that when you transfer the power to do the consultation to another party, like the Alberta government, which in turn transfers it to another third party, which is industry, to do the consultation, the industry players have no authority to do any consultation with us. We are a first nation; we are a government. “Industry” is just exactly what they are: it's industry.

For a consultation to be true and meaningful and respectful of both parties, it has to be from government to government, just the way the treaties were made. When the treaties were signed, it was the government with our first nations.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Elder Marcel, thank you so much for sharing that.

National Chief Atleo, I have a question for you regarding consultation. I can see from the time that I'm not going to get to the other topics.

Could you share what your relationship is, with the Assembly of First Nations, at COSEWIC--your involvement in the subcommittee, what that consultation looks like, and how you can see it improved?

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

I want also to touch on this question that is being asked, because the timelines are in fact not realistic. This has been evidenced in court. It has had to go to court with Nooksack, out west. We've been suggesting what the remedies are here: the idea of stewardship action plans, bilateral agreements that respect first nations jurisdiction, the treaties, and that advisory committee.

I think what we need to do, as you said, is strengthen those processes, recognize the jurisdictional aspects. That includes doing so with participation. If we see a first nations-specific advisory committee, we can then help address the interactions with a number of the other committees that are in existence. I forget what section allows for a minister to establish such an advisory committee.

And on the point you're making here about the relationship between first nations and the government and work in this area, what we need to do is get on with the kinds of remedies that will not have us just be concerned with the NACOSAR, which has within it inherent issues or challenges. We need to strengthen this relationship, and what I'm here to suggest is that we have ways to strengthen the participation. We should be learning from the experience over the last number of years, some of which is challenged by the historical non-recognition of the jurisdictional aspect—the treaty rights and the aboriginal title and rights. The question of actual government-to-government consultation will continue to come back. This isn't anything that goes away. The jurisdictional recognition element must be there.

As for the international covenants, let's go back to Agenda 21. We've been seeking for this country to step forward and define ways in which it's going to embrace indigenous people's defining of “sustainability”. This is an excellent example of a case we should be describing in those terms. It is not just about these committees. We need to embrace the notion of treaties and the implementation of title and rights. That we have thousands of years of expertise is added value.

On the issue of fisheries, there's the notion of integrated local management. Whether you've been a fisher in the Atlantic for five or six generations or are like me—I can trace my roots back 26 generations in where I come from—you have people who care about what's happening. Having us designing approaches that engage people, where the responsibility is shared so that we don't have external imposition, is the role that I think these committees can help with. They can facilitate the engagement process more effectively.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Is there any time for the chief to mention the importance of socio-economic considerations in the designation of critical habitat?

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

Again, it's just to relate it to the need for first nations to be involved in the designation as well as in the listing. The experience thus far is that the involvement isn't sufficient. The experience we have is that when people are out seeking their winter supply of caribou.... I will again reflect back to the points made earlier about other jurisdictions, provinces or territories, taking steps and exercising their jurisdictional obligations, which overlap with and compete with treaty and aboriginal title and rights, and with the very right of an individual to get food for the winter.

We have this situation right now. I'll be speaking soon with the chiefs up in northern Quebec, in the Innu territories. We have to pay very close attention to the correlation between this act and sustainability, title and rights, and access to food, and we need to respect and support the involvement of the peoples who are closest to the land.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. McNeely, I look forward to discussing socio-economic impacts, and I appreciate your comments. You've identified that there's a very short time period for critical habitat, and also for the Governor in Council to deal with it.

I think I'm out of time, and I want to give others a fair chance--unless you want to make a quick comment on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Do you have a brief comment?

[Joshua McNeely]

The timelines are only short in our current implementation of it, in that environment. If we increase the timelines to three years, it wouldn't be enough. Five years wouldn't be enough. What is sorely needed is an ethic of respect, of sustainable development, first and foremost looking at our Convention on Biological Diversity. It's not a convention that sits alone; it's very much integral to the movement on human rights, the movement of environmental protection, the movement of sustainable development. When you move to that environment, the timelines suddenly are not going to be nearly as much of a problem as they are in the environment we're in right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much. Time has expired.

We're going to go to the five-minute round now.

Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm trying to get a grip on all of these issues, and you've brought up many important points.

Is the issue here that the act would, for example, list a species that aboriginal communities might feel should not be listed, based on traditional knowledge, and then that sometimes the reverse would happen, with a species not being listed that should be listed? Is this the core of the issue here?

I don't know whether I'm making myself clear. Is it just a one-directional issue, that we should be listing species and protecting habitat that we're not listing or protecting and that aboriginal traditional knowledge would tell us we should? Is that the issue, or does it cut both ways?

[National Chief Shawn A-in-chut Atleo]

Are you asking each of us?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm asking whoever would like to answer.

Mr. McNeely, you seemed to be interested in that.

[Joshua McNeely]

It's not so much a listing of an individual species; it's about the habitat. With aboriginal peoples, it's always about the habitat. We are interconnected and interdependent with the habitat, so it's as much about us as well. It's about our culture, our identity, our knowledge. It's not just a question of listing a species or not. It's very much an entry point to our being a part of this federation of Canada. We've had that since 1982, but this is an opportunity to actually implement it.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm veering off now on a tangent, I believe, but when it comes to the polar bear, I can't remember what its status is. Has it been listed as endangered? I think the government was looking at that. Could you just inform me about that?

[Joshua McNeely]

I believe it was listed as of special concern. There was a lot of talk about this, but I'm not....

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It's not listed yet, I believe.

[Joshua McNeely]

It's been discussed, anyway.