Evidence of meeting #17 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Atmospheric Science and Technology, Department of the Environment
If I may jump in here, the manager....
Actually, let me step back a bit.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Actually, I have very limited time, so with respect, could you answer yes or no, please.
Director General, Atmospheric Science and Technology, Department of the Environment
The manager is being transitioned to the MSC, to the Meteorological Service of Canada, which has experience in maintaining operational monitoring centres.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Well, I am concerned if the person who runs the centre is being transitioned out. Do Brewers and ozonesondes perform the same tasks, i.e., is there duplication in the system? I'm going to quote from Environment Canada's presentation to the eighth meeting of the ozone research managers of the parties to the Vienna convention for the protection of the ozone layer in May, 2011:
Balloonsonde networks provide critical high-resolution vertical profiles of ozone, water vapour, and temperature, and need to be maintained and expanded, since such data are critical to understanding the interactions between atmospheric composition and a changing climate.
Dr. Dodds, this is the opinion of your department. Do you share it, yes or no?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
One of the wonderful things about science is that it's always evolving. We've been very clear that both methods are needed, that both methods will continue, but you can't say forever in the future. One of our recent publications--
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
What has changed since May? So in May ozonesondes were critical and in August there's a change.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
No, I'm saying ozonesondes are critical. I think I've been very clear that both methods will continue to be used. One of the things that has changed since May is that we've had different scientists, including at conference proceedings just last week, I believe, talking about a new way of looking at some of the greenhouse gases using satellite data. Again, our measurement techniques are constantly evolving. So this is a positive thing, as satellites can cover much more area--
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
I'm going to interrupt you, because I really want to stick with ozonesondes. The ozonesonde network is at risk. We understand that the Brewer manager and technician are to be moved to Environment Canada's Meteorological Service of Canada. So I'm guessing that is not the network you are planning to reduce.
Ozonesondes are needed for pollution measurements in the troposphere or lower atmosphere. There are no ozonesonde measurements in Quebec, New Brunswick, or P.E.I., which means that critical data needed to keep pollution forecasts on track are missing.
I'm now going to ask whether you are closing each of the following stations one at a time, and I'm looking for a yes, no, or don't know.
Kelowna.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
I don't know.
But I want to be clear that in the science and technology branch, in the atmospheric science and technology directorate, we will continue to have research scientists who understand and use both the Brewer and the ozonesonde. Neither method or the use of neither instrument is going to be totally transferred to the MSC. What's being transferred to the Meteorological Service of Canada is the handling of data after it has been collected and analyzed and interpreted by science in the science and technology branch.
Liberal
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
No, as I said regarding the three in the north, we've made a commitment that we'll stay. As for all of the others, we are not prepared to say because those discussions are happening now with the scientists.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Okay, so that would be Kelowna, Edmonton, Regina, Egbert, Yarmouth, and Goose Bay. Then there's Alert, Eureka, Resolute, and Churchill. Which are the three that are staying?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
The ones that I know about are Alert, Eureka, and Resolute.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
I'm really struggling because we had a briefing note, “Ozone monitoring cuts”, which you approved. These methods measure different characteristics of the atmosphere, and thus complement but not duplicate each other. You have also said that the department has two separate technologies that measure ozone, but budget cuts will mean that the two separate networks won't be maintained.
Why have the minister and the parliamentary secretary repeatedly said there would be no cuts? Who is right?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
There are no reductions to the monitoring—to the results—that Environment Canada needs to provide to meet our obligations to Canadians.
How we provide those results is something that we're having discussions inside about how best to use the dollars we have available to us.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Will monitoring be maintained in the lower atmosphere, yes or no?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
Yes.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
That's the first time I've heard that. That's reassuring, and I thank you for that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa
Your time has expired. Thank you.
This will begin our first questioner in the second round.
Madam St-Denis, you have five minutes.
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you.
With all the changes we have heard about, that is, the integration of data sources and the budgetary cuts, is Canada not sending the international community a conflicting message given its responsibilities in the Canadian Arctic and the corresponding territorial claims? We currently have territorial claims in the Arctic.
If we cut all that by integrating the tools and somewhat reducing the budgets, how is the international community going to react?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
Maybe one of the things I will discuss—and ask Charles if he has more to elaborate on—is that ozone in the upper atmosphere is not something that's specific to Toronto, Vancouver, or Edmonton. It is a large layer and covers lots of geography. It is the ozone that's really at ground level that's a concern for human health. It is produced by things like traffic and smog. The Arctic certainly doesn't have a concern about that kind of ozone production. So, again, from the science, you would say you don't need that kind of local monitoring of low level ozone.
We are concerned about the hole, which is high. It's a temporary hole that does not exist throughout the year. It occurred this year at the end of the winter and early spring, because of the cold conditions.
We've said, and I will continue to say, that we have committed to continue to have the monitoring sites in the far north. Indeed, the interest in the international community in them is because they are not so specific to Canada's north, but give us information on what's happening in the hemisphere.
Director General, Atmospheric Science and Technology, Department of the Environment
From a science perspective, the Arctic is still a priority for the department. For example, we have a station in Alert that has a high global profile. It is part of a small number of stations called
Global Atmosphere Watch of the OMM, the World Meteorological Organization.
There are rules governing data collection and so on. So Canada has a high profile in the Arctic from the perspective of the measurement of parameters.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Can you give us an overview of the improvement or worsening of the ozone situation since we started to take measurements? We have been measuring ozone for a long time. What is the current situation as regards danger to human health compared with 30 or 40 years ago?
Director General, Atmospheric Science and Technology, Department of the Environment
It is true we have been measuring ozone for decades. As for the effects on health, I think the results are quite recent. Everyone knows the results relating to cancer. This is more recent.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
But how is the situation now? Is it serious? Is it controllable? How good or bad is it?