Environment Committee on Dec. 13th, 2011

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That somewhat outstrips the rate of inflation.

I'm wondering if you agree with me that a 20% increase in four years is really evidence of a very strong commitment on the part of the government to environmental enforcement.

[Scott Vaughan]

Yes. The honourable member is absolutely right.

There was an increase in the budget, and I think we've noted that twice in the report. What I would also say is that the returns thus far....

I would like to get to that.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

We will get to that. Thank you.

I just wanted to double check with you on the point about full-time staff. As I understand it, in that same four-year period, there has been an increase of 40 full-time equivalent positions in the enforcement directorate. Is that correct?

[Scott Vaughan]

That is correct.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

My math says that, since we're now up to 214, that means it's a 23% increase in the same period.

Is that correct?

[Scott Vaughan]

I'll defer to your math.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

People at home can check that.

I just want to say that from where I'm sitting, whatever the department has done with that money, this demonstrates a very strong commitment on the part of our government toward environmental enforcement. There's been a 23% increase in staff in just four years.

Now, I do want to ask you about one of the areas that you've talked about in your report regarding follow-up and enforcement. To get to this, I'm going to begin with the fact that in 2010-2011, there were 606 written warnings and 42 environmental protection compliance orders, as found on page 7 of your graphs. Am I reading that correctly?

[Scott Vaughan]

That's correct.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

My understanding is that the difference between then is that a warning is generally given where the circumstances are relatively minor, and a environmental protection order is issued when things are going to require a little more work.

Is that correct?

[Scott Vaughan]

The warnings are for minor infractions.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

In fact, I understand that the department asserts that where an officer has issued an environmental protection compliance order, legally binding timelines for a return to compliance are established, and schedules are monitored closely.

Do you agree with that?

[Scott Vaughan]

Maybe I'll ask my colleague Mr. Ferguson.

[Andrew Ferguson, Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Yes, there are legally binding schedules in the EPCOs, and by and large it appears that the evaluators respect those timelines.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Right. And these are monitored, according to the department, as I understand from earlier this morning. Is that right?

[Andrew Ferguson]

The EPCOs specify an action to be taken by the regulatee, and when the regulatee submits the action plan, that's recorded by the department.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

As I understand it, the compliance timelines are monitored.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes, the EPCO generally specifies a timeline for coming up with a plan.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right. Okay.

What I'm getting at here is that in your report you've indicated that in over half the cases there is insufficient or no follow-up. I should be able to put my finger on that specifically. It's paragraph 3.49, which says there was “...no evidence that enforcement officers followed up.”

Since the EPCO orders are given timelines and monitoring, may I assume that you're talking there about the warning cases, or something other than EPCO, anyway.

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes, we're referring to our overall sample that we took, which shows that 50% of the time they don't follow up. So there is a proportion of the EPCOs that are not followed up, but the overwhelming majority of what the department does is via warning letters.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right, and so there are going to be roughly 303 warning letters that didn't get followed up, right?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Yes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

These are the minor areas, correct?

[Andrew Ferguson]

Generally an EPCO is issued after several warning letters fail to result in a compliance, so you could say they're minor, but they're not insignificant.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I guess if an EPCO is issued, that means somebody was monitoring it and following up, right?

[Andrew Ferguson]

On the 50% where they did follow-up and issued an EPCO, perhaps you're right.