Environment Committee on Oct. 17th, 2012

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

I do agree with my colleague that Parks Canada does play an important role in urban conservation. First of all, I have to refute the premise of her question in that she's making the assumption that the capacity and the ability to deliver these programs have been somehow damaged. That has been the premise of her question. I fully disagree with that point. I believe that we have a very strong case to show that our government has not only increased funding and capacity for science, for educational activities, and for conservation activities within Parks Canada, but has also protected park land across this country.

I think our government has increased protected park space by over 50% from when we took office. This is a very, very important step.

First, the premise of the question is completely wrong, and it's false. I don't think that we should be accepting that within this, and certainly it does disrespect to our witnesses here who work hard to maintain that capacity.

Second, I heard nothing in her line of questioning that would relate to the scope with regard to urban conservation principles.

I think it's very misleading, not only for our witnesses to have to answer these questions, but also to anyone listening to these proceedings, especially given the very positive track record that our government has with Parks Canada. We've just received two major awards, in fact. I believe it was the World Wildlife Federation, and there was another association as well that gave us an award for the ecological integrity, I believe it was, that Parks Canada maintained.

Again, the premise of the question is completely off. I completely disagree with it, and I would also point to scope relevancy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Mr. Choquette, you have the floor.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague Ms. Quach's question was clearly for Mr. Campbell and had to do with Parks Canada. So I think that Mr. Campbell is really the right person to answer that question.

In addition, we are trying to work on urban conservation. My colleague Mr. Lunney mentioned earlier that he wanted people to be able to go to the parks and visit our attractions and natural sites. I don’t see why my honourable colleague’s question, simply asking whether guides and human interaction can improve our relationship with nature, has to be perceived as being beyond the scope of our study.

On the contrary, I think that it is very relevant. I will not expand on Ms. Rempel's comments about all the good things the Conservatives are doing for the environment and conservation. We know there have recently been service cuts in a number of Canadian parks. The season has also been shortened. So, if we shorten the season during which we have access to our parks and services, I do not see how we can say that we are improving access to urban and national parks.

In fact, if we want to do a study on urban conservation and if we want to provide access to those parks, I think we are entitled to ask ourselves what the best way to provide access to those parks is. Is it signs or is it someone who greets visitors to talk about the history and the environmental features of the park?

For example, we were talking about the habitat stewardship program earlier. I am happy we talked about it because that is also a problem in Drummondville. City officials have been applying for funding for years now. They have always received the funding, but all of a sudden they are not receiving it anymore. The regional environmental council in central Quebec is doing an outstanding job. This is a non-profit organization. However, the organization has not received funding this year either.

So, if we want to have an urban conservation program, those are the types of questions we need to ask. As you mentioned, Ms. Poter, we have programs that support urban conservation. As a result, it is normal for us to ask you questions about that. So I don’t see why we would be constantly interrupted when we ask questions about science and programs. Ms. Poter talked about that in her presentation.

I don’t think that you are offended, Mr. Chair, or that the Conservatives are offended because she named the EcoAction community funding program, the ecological gifts program, the natural areas conservation program and the habitat stewardship program. So I think it makes sense to ask questions about that.

I am sorry for taking up a lot of time, but I felt strongly about this and it was starting to get on my nerves a bit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Ms. Duncan, is this on the point of order?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Yes, it is, Mr. Chair.

I think it's really important that we have a fair and balanced approach, and that's always based on evidence. This is national science and technology week, and yet there's the ELA, Kluane, and we've already lost PEARL. It appears that we are losing our research stations. This is important.

When there is good work, we recognize it. For example, we recognize the creation of Nááts'ihch'oh as important, but we should also recognize that the borders are not as broad as stakeholders would have liked and that grizzlies and caribou are not protected.

In coming back to evidence, the reality is that there is a cut of $29 million to Parks Canada. Throughout the summer there was criticism that was levelled about health and integrity of our renowned parks and about reducing the number of scientists.

I think it's important when we're talking about best practices to recognize this. We want a stellar study. We want to make good recommendations, but there are management realities. I think it's important that we recognize them.

I think my colleague's question is very much on point, and I hope she gets an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Next, Madam Leslie.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I'll leave it to Madam Quach to speak to the relevance of the question.

I just want to point out that it's not the role of government members, parliamentary secretaries notwithstanding, to refute the premise of the question. We have perfectly capable witnesses here who could correct Ms. Quach if she is actually pointing out things that don't happen to be true. I don't see that as the role for government members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Madam Quach, go ahead.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

I would simply like to add that there have been cuts this summer and there are facts to back this up. The government wants to cut educational and awareness activities at Montreal's Biosphere. Yet that is the only museum in North America that offers urban conservation awareness activities and activities that promote that natural heritage. It also has to do with culture and pride in our Canadian identity. Those really are the facts. I am not making any of this up. You can check it in the newspapers and probably even on the Parks Canada website.

I really care about this issue because it has to do with urban conservation, job creation, contribution to the economy and the establishment of new parks as part of Parks Canada. But, at the same time, jobs are being cut and those jobs are crucial to the development of urban conservation for the public.

My question was about whether guides play a key role in urban conservation. That was my question to Mr. Campbell.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Ms. Rempel, we'll have you close by speaking to this point of order.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Centre-North, AB]

Certainly. On my colleague's point about the role of government or non-government members, I think as legislators and as people in this place who were brought here to discuss the validity of policy, to discuss what policy should be going forward, and certainly when we're undertaking a study of this gravity, when statements are made, it is also our prerogative to make comments on those that are factually inaccurate.

For example, on the statement about scientists being cut, in fact, we've increased funding to the tri-council to record levels. We've increased the number of Canada research chairs that come to this country so that we have a greater science capacity across academia. We've increased funding to the Canada Foundation for Innovation so that we have research infrastructure. The point about science capacity being cut could be argued as simply wrong.

Therefore, I disagree. I think one of our jobs as legislators is to push back slightly when these factual inaccuracies are pushed forward. I certainly hope you will consider that as well, Mr. Chair, in making your ruling.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you.

I think we've had adequate discussion on the point of order. Ms. Duncan brought up the issue of cuts to Environment Canada. I did rule that was out of order as being outside the scope. During the time that members in this committee have, they can talk about multiple things. Hopefully, they are within the scope, but the questions to a witness need to be within the scope. If members want to use their time creatively and talk outside the scope, that's their right.

Madam Quach, you talked about a national historic site. You shared your opinion that there were cuts, early closures, guides being replaced by signs, and biospheres being scrapped. When you ask whether these cuts were appropriate, and should there be signs or guides, that is outside the scope, as it was for Ms. Duncan.

You have a minute and 15 seconds left in your time. While your statements can be outside the scope, I would ask that your questions to the witnesses be within the scope.

Thank you.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Mr. Campbell, could you explain how the guides contribute to promoting the Parks Canada sites?

[Andrew Campbell]

Interpretative guides and non-personal interpretation have had a role in Parks Canada sites for a long period. When people think of personal guides and non-personal interpretation, they also have to think of some of the new technologies that are available and not think that, as in the past, it can only be panels or people. There are other things.

Guides obviously have the role of personal contact with individuals, but there are other means of interpretation. Many people go to the Louvre every year, or go to the National Gallery of Canada, and use third person interpretation. They guide themselves through the museums with the help of technology. Parks Canada will be looking at a mix.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you, your time has expired.

Mr. Woodworth, you have five minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses and thank them for joining us today.

I don't want you to feel neglected, Mr. Campbell, but in the five minutes I have I'm going to discuss things with Ms. Poter.

I was very interested, in relation to best practices for urban conservation, in the comments you made about a federal-provincial-territorial working group focusing on integrating biodiversity conservation into municipal plans and strategies. Could you tell me when that was established? Do you know who took the lead in establishing it?

[Virginia Poter]

I'm sorry I don't know the answer to the question about when it was established.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Okay.

Can you tell me anything about the scope or work plan of that particular working group?

[Virginia Poter]

I'm not familiar with the working groups, so I apologize for that.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's all right.

Can you give us any further details about the targets you mentioned? I'm sorry to put you on the spot like that, but it was quite interesting to me. If you have the information I'd be happy to receive it.

[Virginia Poter]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. I thought it was about urban working groups, so my apologies. We do have a federal-provincial-territorial working group that is looking at developing targets for domestic implementation of the CBD.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That's precisely the working group you mentioned and the one I'm trying to ask about.

[Virginia Poter]

My apologies, I didn't understand. I can't say when the group was established. It's a group that has just come to me over the summer. I'm a little less familiar with its history, but I do know that it has been very active in its engagement with the provinces and territories. We're going to be hearing the results of some of their deliberations around the targets next week at an ADM level call with our colleagues from across the country. They've been looking at stepping down the CBD targets that were laid out as aspirational in the 2010 conference of the parties, COP, of the CBD.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

CBD? You'll have to remind me.

[Virginia Poter]

It's the Convention on Biological Diversity.