Evidence of meeting #37 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sahtu.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Prosper  Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation, Parks Canada
Kevin McNamee  Director, Parks Establishment, Parks Canada
Rocky Norwegian  President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council
Ethel Blondin-Andrew  Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Leona Aglukkaq Conservative Nunavut, NU

Mr. Chair, I think I just outlined the process moving forward in Tulita. I've identified the infrastructure that we need to construct in order to have the office space and the warehouse facilities for that. I believe $2.8 million has been identified to start the construction. These impact and benefit agreements are identified and agreed to through the agreements with the aboriginal groups. In the development of a park, we have to have the impact and benefit agreement signed. It outlines the number of staff, training, and so forth. I believe I just covered that in responding to that question.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

Through Wood Buffalo I'm familiar with the management planning process in national parks that deal with the first nations. Could you outline how that cooperative management planning is going to take place? Do you have a specific board that will meet on a regular basis? Will the management plan have a five-year review, a ten-year review? What's the process that would guarantee when we're moving forward with the management of this region, there will be enough opportunity for interaction to ensure that what we're doing is going to work out for the people there?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Leona Aglukkaq Conservative Nunavut, NU

This is part of the normal process of developing a management plan for creating any park. In this particular case, what's unique is that we're dealing with a land claims group as well. Through the land claims agreements that are signed, there's an impact and benefit agreement requirement that triggers the creation of the park. Without an IBA we can't proceed with the actual creation. Those two work in parallel, the creation of the park boundaries issues and so forth. The management committee will provide advice to the minister as well as the Sahtu Renewable Resources Board on various park matters, for example, permitting aircraft going into O'Grady Lake to access the park. Different communities are also involved, so it allows a committee to coordinate efforts in allowing Canadians to access the national parks in their areas.

The management committee includes the chairperson, four representatives from the Tulita and Norman Wells renewable resource councils, and four ministerial appointments. The management committee's initial priorities will focus on supporting Parks Canada as well as the Sahtu in getting the new park operational. That has to be completed as part of the claim within five years, I believe.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

You have one minute, if you want it.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

Okay.

One of the big problems in the whole Sahtu region is climate change. I believe that in Canada, this region, the Mackenzie Valley, is impacted the most by climate change. Scientists report losses of up to 40% of the permafrost in that area.

Does Parks Canada have a clear understanding of the significant changes that are taking place in the ecosystem there? Will that be part of the management plan going forward, to deal with those types of issues or put forward those issues as significant in the development of the plan?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Leona Aglukkaq Conservative Nunavut, NU

I'll refer that to the member here.

4:25 p.m.

Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation, Parks Canada

Rob Prosper

Yes. In fact we have a comprehensive monitoring program that's undertaken in all national parks. It looks at all of the key ecosystems and establishes measures for measuring change for each of those key ecosystems in every national park. Nahanni has a monitoring program and Nááts’ihch’oh and Nahanni combined, being in the same watershed, will likely share a monitoring program for that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you. That brings us to the end of our first hour of witnesses for the establishment of Nááts’ihch’oh national park reserve.

I want to thank our Minister of the Environment for being here.

Thank you to the officials for joining us today.

We'll suspend for three minutes, and then we'll have our witnesses who are appearing by video conference

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

I would ask our committee to come back to order, please.

We have appearing with us by teleconference, from the Tulita Renewable Resources Council, Rocky Norwegian, president. We have his name tag at the end of the table, so when you have a question, members, please direct it to one of the members, so we don't waste time trying to decide who has been asked the question.

Also with us by teleconference from the Northwest Territories, we have Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated, Ethel Blondin-Andrew, chairperson.

Welcome. We're going to proceed in the order I just listed.

Mr. Norwegian, I'm assuming you will proceed with your opening statement, and then Ms. Blondin-Andrew later.

Mr. Norwegian, go ahead please.

4:30 p.m.

Rocky Norwegian President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

Greetings.

My name is Rocky Norwegian, Senior. I'm a member of the board of directors of the Fort Norman Metis Land Corporation, and I am also the president for the renewable resources council in Tulita. I have a responsibility for Nááts'ihch'oh.

When I signed the impact and benefit plan that enabled the bill on behalf of the Fort Norman Métis and the renewable resource council, I did so with a great deal of happiness and pride.

The impact and benefit plan was entered into as a result of chapter 16 of the Sahtu Dene and Metis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement. The comprehensive agreement was entered into on September 6, 1993 and was ratified by legislation that received royal assent on June 23, 1994. I mention this because without the comprehensive agreement there would be no national park for you to consider today. The comprehensive agreement is the first and so far only treaty that specifically includes the Métis people.

I want to acknowledge the contributions that each member of the Tulita district Nááts'ihch'oh working groups past and present has made to the achievement that is embodied in the bill you are considering. I also want to acknowledge all past and present members of the board of directors of the organizations that approved the impact and benefit plan, not once but twice. The first approval was with the greater land area that we had agreed to with Parks Canada. The second approval was with the area that was reduced by John Duncan, the then-minister of AANDC, that we reluctantly agreed to.

I also want to acknowledge the elders who were with us through the negotiations, as well as those who have passed on since the finalizing of the Sahtu Dene and Metis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement. I would particularly like to remember my good friend and mentor, the late Rod Hardy, one of our elders who passed on just before we started the negotiations, who brought us to where we are today. Rod was a great supporter of the Yellowstone to Yukon concept that is sometimes simply called the Y-to-Y. Nááts'ihch'oh fills in another spot in the Y-to-Y concept.

I would also like to acknowledge the work of Chief Frank Andrew of the Tulita Dene band, who played a significant role in bringing the impact and benefit plan to finalization, which has in turn enabled the legislation you are now considering.

The impact and benefit plan is very significant for us as it is the first complete agreement that we have made with the Parks Canada agency. We have made complete agreements with many oil and gas companies and mining companies, but never one such as this one. It is not without significance that we negotiated and completed a cooperative agreement with Selwyn Resources about four years ago. The Selwyn mine borders Nááts'ihch'oh, and a road to the mine will run through Nááts'ihch'oh. This is fine with us as it illustrates how the proponents of conservation and resource extraction can be good neighbours.

The process used to complete the agreement is a good illustration of how the Sahtu Dene and Metis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement can be used to bring significant economic benefits to the beneficiaries of the comprehensive agreement, and at the same time protect a significant part of our homeland. The impact and benefit plan and the subsequent legislation would not have been possible without the Sahtu Dene and Metis Comprehensive Land Claim Agreement and the leadership of the Government of Canada.

I will not go into the details of the impact and benefit plan, but I can tell you that it was approved by the board of directors and the members of all three corporations and both renewable resource councils, knowing that it would lead to the legislation being considered by you today. I can tell you that we are now actively engaged in the implementation of the plan by way of our participation in the management committee.

I am also sure that the members of all three land corporations look forward to taking advantage of the employment, training, education, and scholarship opportunities that are provided for in the impact and benefit plan. Additionally, the members who have businesses also have opportunities that are provided for in the plan.

Notwithstanding our support for the bill, there remains one outstanding issue, and that is the boundaries of Nááts'ihch'oh. Although we are not completely happy with these boundaries—we supported more land being included—we are prepared to accept what is in front of you today. We accept what is in front of you today in the hope that in the not too distant future the boundaries will be expanded to include more land.

In the meantime we have another avenue open to us to push for more protection of the land in the area.

The other avenue is the Sahtu Land Use Plan and the requirement that it deal with the lands that were part of the lands that were withdrawn for negotiation purposes but not included in Nááts’ihch’oh.

It would be helpful if the committee could recommend passage of the bill with a caveat that Parks Canada open negotiations to expand the boundaries to protect more of the ecosystem of Nááts'ihch'oh, and that the current land withdrawal order, which is scheduled to end on March 31, 2015, be extended indefinitely until an expansion agreement is reached.

Mahsi Cho, merci beaucoup, and thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you very much, Mr. Norwegian.

We'll move now to Ms. Blondin-Andrew.

November 17th, 2014 / 4:40 p.m.

Ethel Blondin-Andrew Chairperson, Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated

Good afternoon. I was very happy to listen to Minister Aglukkaq speak to the bill. My colleague, Rocky Norwegian, Senior, and I have had the opportunity to be a part of this process since the onset of the work to begin the establishment of this park when the Government of Canada itself had requested the expansion of the Nahanni headwaters.

Minister, committee Chair, and members, both MPs and senators, I would like you to know that as the former member of Parliament for this area for 18 years, I'm extremely proud to have been part of this process. It shows you there is life after politics for one, and that good things can be done in partnership.

My name is Ethel Blondin-Andrew. I am the chairperson for Sahtu Secretariat Incorporated. I'm serving my second term representing the 3,500 Sahtu Dene and Métis land claim beneficiaries.

On behalf of the SSI, I was involved in the initial planning and establishment of the Nááts’ihch’oh national park reserve of Canada. I am pleased to make these comments to you on behalf of the SSI. I no longer sit on the board or have any direct contact with the daily work to ensure that the benefits agreement is actually implemented. However, I'm sure like everybody else who was involved we keep a leery eye out and watch what's happening on a grander scale.

I'm pleased to make these comments to you because there is a high level of interest in what's happening here.

The area of the park has great cultural significance to the Sahtu Dene and Métis, and in particular the Mountain Dene. This area has a special spiritual significance to the Mountain Dene who have lived and used these lands and resources since time immemorial. Our people have always recognized that these lands within the national park hold special powers, meaning we've carried those messages in our oral tradition as our languages are spoken not written.

The Mountain Dene traditionally travelled throughout the area of the park visiting among the various tribal groups. Our grandparents and parents took their children to this area in order to teach them about culture and the stories of the land. This experience formed an important part of our identity, culture, and beliefs. This is where we learned to be self-sufficient, and to be good hunters, workers, and providers.

Our people would usually go up the Keele River which goes into the national park. They would walk into the mountains to the headwaters such as the Nááts’ihch’oh area and O'Grady Lake, which is known as Túoch'ee Tuwé, to live throughout the winter and hunt moose. The following spring and summer they would return by the Keele River to the Mackenzie River in big moose-skin boats filled with freshly harvested moose meat and other goods.

Today the Mountain Dene still use this area for traditional purposes. We continue to use it for spiritual purposes and to hunt moose, sheep, and caribou. Occasionally and more than occasionally I've seen my colleague, Mr. Norwegian, and myself up in the Caribou Flats area doing what has been carried on for thousands of years by our ancestors, harvesting food in the fall.

The Sahtu Dene and Métis support the establishment of the park. We maintain that any park in the settlement area must be created and managed in partnership with the Sahtu Dene and Métis and based on our cultural traditions, spiritual values, and economic aspirations.

I can say we were involved in the identification of the boundaries of the park and the establishment of its co-management board. The co-management board will oversee the operation of the park. This is significant because we do not see the park operating as those parks located in southern Canada. Our role on the co-management board will ensure we are involved in decisions relating to the management of the park and ensure that operation of this park will be consistent with our values and traditions.

I must say that this is consistent with the basic tenets of the land claims agreement, which is a document that really promotes co-management. We took a practical and balanced approach with respect to the planning and establishment of the park and its management. We wanted a park to protect the land. We wanted to ensure that our people are able to continue to hunt and trap within this area and use the lands and resources of this area for traditional purposes if they choose to do so. But we also see potential economic development opportunities in this area, including mine development.

The western part of the park is rich in minerals, including the Selwyn lead-zinc deposit which is considered to be one of the biggest deposits in the world. I point out that the Sahtu Dene and Métis have a partnership agreement with the proponent of Selwyn with respect to this deposit. We have a cooperative agreement that's actually being reinvigorated and revisited. I was at a meeting with Selwyn just two or three days ago in which they cited that when they build the road near the park, much of which is in the Sahtu area, they would like to do it to industrial level and that the Government of Canada looked favourably upon their aspirations to do that in concert with the Sahtu Dene and Métis and that they wanted us to support that.

My read of this is that I hear from my colleague Mr. Norwegian that we support that because it will provide economic benefits to our people. The Sahtu Dene have an interest in developing an ecotourism lodge that is connected to the park as well. We wanted to ensure that the park did not adversely impact economic development opportunities. For instance, we agreed that the Lened and Selwyn mining claims and leases should be excluded from the park.

There were compromises made, and there were practical approaches taken. A key component of the establishment of the park was the negotiation of an impact and benefit agreement. Mr. Norwegian spoke to this, so I won't bother going into details. The IBA among Sahtu land corporations, two renewable resource councils in the Tulita district, and the Government of Canada establishes infrastructure in Tulita that is intended to be the gateway to the park. There must be a federal commitment to hire new positions relating to the operation and management of the park as committed to in the IBA. There must be a commitment to provide funds for local capacity building and that hiring practices and approaches maximize local benefits in particular to ensure that the Sahtu Dene and Métis benefit from employment and other economic opportunities relating to the park.

Parks Canada has made significant commitments to the Sahtu Dene and Métis in the IBA. We must work together in collaboration if these commitments are to be realized. The Government of Canada is very familiar with this park. It started out with Minister John Baird, and then went on to Minister Kent, and now we have Minister Aglukkaq.

The Prime Minister himself has actually been to Nááts’ihch’oh along with Mrs. Harper on a trip with our legal adviser and our political adviser, Rick Hardy, who took a pre-eminent role in helping to establish this park. I think some of that credit should go to the work Rick has done as well as all of the board members and the elders. It was a work in progress and it was an awesome experience to share this with the Prime Minister of our country, and to show that when people want to there can be cooperation and that things can happen positively.

We look forward to working with the Government of Canada to manage the area of the park in a balanced approach and capitalize on the benefits arising from the Nááts’ihch’oh park.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you very much, Mrs. Blondin-Andrew.

We will now move to the questions from committee members.

We'll begin with a question from Mr. Woodworth.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, witnesses, not only for being here today, but also for your long and determined involvement in this process. It's so good to hear the pride and accomplishment in your comments today and your satisfaction with having reached this point in the journey.

I have some questions. I'll begin with Mr. Norwegian, particularly around the impact and benefit agreement.

Forgive me, my voice is a little hoarse due to some health issues.

Do I understand, Mr. Norwegian, that the most recent or final impact and benefit agreement contained the boundaries which are in effect before us today in relation to this legislation for the park?

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Okay.

You mentioned a board of directors which had approved that impact and benefit agreement. What board of directors was that?

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

Rocky Norwegian

It was the parks committee, the board of directors from the three land corporations...well, the board of directors that were made up by the RRCs.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I'm afraid you need to be a little more specific for me, because I'm not familiar with the groups up there. What land committees are you referring to?

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

Rocky Norwegian

I mean the parks committee that was established by the renewable resources councils to negotiate with Parks Canada.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Very good.

You mentioned all three organizations, and again I didn't quite catch what organizations we're talking about. You're here for the Tulita Renewable Resources Council. Is that one of the three that you mentioned?

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

Rocky Norwegian

No, it has all three of the land corporations within the Tulita district.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Okay, I understand.

Then the resource councils, that's the—

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council

Rocky Norwegian

These are the two, one in Norman Wells and one in Tulita, that are also part of the Tulita district.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Okay.

Was this impact and benefit agreement in its current final form reviewed by all of these groups: the board of directors, the three land companies, and the two resource councils? Is that correct?

4:50 p.m.

President, Tulita Renewable Resources Council