Evidence of meeting #123 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was audit.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
I haven't done an audit on the science in these departments, so I really can't answer that.
The departments are here, so you can ask them. That's what I would recommend.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Okay, then I'll go specifically to the marine endangered species that are covered in your report. How do you think we're doing there?
4:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
In terms of the species at risk, it's very clear that Environment and Climate Change Canada had not met most of their deadlines for the development of recovery plans. Then, once the recovery plans were developed, they weren't meeting their targets for the action plan.
In a couple of species, you can see 11 years from the time it was listed under SARA to the time that the action plan was approved—up to 14 years. You can also add on the fact that many of these species were listed under COSEWIC before the Species at Risk Act, some of them going back to the 1980s.
We've been aware that some of these species have been at risk for a long time. At least from a species-at-risk action plan perspective, for the 14 species that were at risk, the departments couldn't show us any action for 11 out of those 14 species.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Okay.
I have a question then for Mr. Morel on aquatic ecosystems. Are you responsible for science in that section?
4:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No. I'm responsible for species at risk.
Science is a different sector, but depending on your question, I may give you an element of the answer.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Okay.
I'm curious. In terms of the changes that happened previously—in 2012, etc.—how is your science complement doing these days in terms of staffing and funding?
I would ask Parks Canada that as well.
4:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In budget 2016, I think it was $40 million that was reinvested in DFO to re-establish the capacity of the department. On a big initiative like the oceans protection plan or the whales initiative that relates to that, or the nature legacy initiative that was announced a few months ago, some money is also dedicated to support the science capacity of the department. I would say that the science capacity of the department is way better than it was.
It's a tricky question, because with science, the more you do research, the more you probably need to do to bring certainty.... We feel, from a program perspective or from a regulatory preparedness perspective, that we have the proper science to do our job.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Clearly from the auditor's report, there's more work to do, particularly around species at risk.
I'll turn to Parks Canada.
Is your department only park wardens, or is it also science and park wardens?
October 4th, 2018 / 4:20 p.m.
Tamaini Snaith Acting Director, Natural Resources Conservation, Parks Canada Agency
We do have park wardens doing enforcement. We also have active science capacity in parks.
We have a system-wide ecological monitoring program by which we look at how the ecosystems in parks are doing. That's how we make decisions on where to put our restoration efforts, and that feeds our ongoing park management planning cycle.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
If you have the answer to the question, where are you today compared to after the cuts in 2012?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director, Natural Resources Conservation, Parks Canada Agency
I don't have the actual numbers of the scientists who are employed at Parks Canada, but we similarly received resources in budget 2018.
4:20 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Again, I'll go back to the commissioner on this question.
I'm very happy to see the increase in marine protected areas, up now to 7.9%. Are you comfortable, from what you've seen so far, that the regulations in place in those marine protected areas will protect marine species at risk?
4:20 p.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
What we looked at in our audit was whether or not marine protected areas were a tool that was being used to protect marine mammals specifically.
Marine protected areas are established for a variety of different reasons. Environment and Climate Change Canada established them for seabirds, for example, and in those ones the regulations are quite strict and not a lot of activity occurs. You'll see that in our audit. Parks Canada establishes more of a representative system of protected areas, so they have a different set of rules and regulations. In our audit we talk about the Saguenay marine park and the regulations there to help protect the beluga.
In the case of the marine protected areas established by DFO, three out of 11 marine protected areas were established to protect marine mammals, but we found that generally in those three areas overall there weren't a lot of restrictions generally for commercial fishing or for shipping.
4:25 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
I want to go enforcement for just a minute, Ms. McCready, if possible.
I understand that you have at least one officer in my riding, which is appreciated.
4:25 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
We do.
4:25 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
At one point DFO planned to have six enforcement officers in the Kootenays. There are none there today. There are no fisheries biologists in my part of the world at all. When you need assistance in terms of enforcement, working with other departments, it must feel a little lonely at times. Could you comment a bit on interdepartmental enforcement and regulation enforcement?
4:25 p.m.
Director General, Environmental Enforcement, Department of the Environment
I'd be happy to.
Canada is a big country. We have, as I mentioned, approximately 200 officers spread across the country. However, we work very collaboratively with provincial officials and also other departments. While we are sometimes small, we are friendly. There's a lot of outreach going on among the different levels of government even though we're spread out all over the country.
What I try to do with our officers is to get them to remember that we're a national program. If we look at ourselves as a collection of tiny district offices, then we seem quite small. We are quite often up against massive corporations, usually multinational mining corporations. From where I sit, I'm looking at the sum of the parts. I see these bits of brilliance all over the country. When we add them together, we're actually quite strong. When we add that to our provincial counterparts, who we work with quite frequently, and then other departments, it's not uncommon for us to be working on a long-term, multi-agency joint investigation. There's one actually in your area that includes the Province of B.C., Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment and Climate Change Canada. Those relationships are really a force multiplier. They take effort to set up and to continue, but they're an important part of our work.
4:25 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Thank you.
Next up we have Mr. Bossio.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you all for being here today.
Commissioner, as always, it's a real pleasure to have you in our room with that breath of fresh air that you bring every time you come. We appreciate it, and the exceptional job you do on the accountability front.
Our committee has been recognized. Monsieur Morin did a study on CEPA. One of the recommendations is “that CEPA be amended to require the federal government to develop legally binding and enforceable national standards for drinking water in consultation with the provinces, territories, Indigenous peoples, stakeholders and the public”. The government came back from that report with the response that it's supportive of strong drinking water standards nationally and that actions were being undertaken to strengthen the existing approach for the development of these guidelines.
I ask this question because there's one chemical in particular, 1,4 dioxane, which is found in landfills. It is the chemical that actually shows that leachate is leaking from a landfill, and it is indisputable. The concern I have is that in Canada the regulation today is 50 micrograms for 1,4 dioxane, but in all other jurisdictions—in the U.S., Europe, and other places—it's 0.75 to three in most other jurisdictions.
My concern is that we're falling behind on these drinking water standards. From what I understand, that standard is under review right now. I want to know where things stand on that. Do you take into account these other jurisdictions when you're looking at these standards?
4:25 p.m.
Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
In terms of the legally binding drinking water quality standards, we are working with regard to private member's bill C-326 on improving the transparency, the reporting and the progress that's being made with regard to drinking water quality standards in Canada. We are progressing. Work in that area is to really improve the transparency in the CEPA annual report.
In terms of work that's being done to make this available, a lot is being done between the federal government and the province. We are also a collaborating centre of the World Health Organization.
Specifically with regard to 1,4-dioxane, we actually published a draft drinking water quality guideline in September. Prior to that we did not have one. That draft drinking water quality guideline that was published in September has 1,4-dioxane at 50 micrograms per litre, which is considerably lower now than the one that is proposed by USEPA. They have it as currently at about—