Evidence of meeting #124 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.
A recording is available from Parliament.
October 16th, 2018 / 4:35 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
We have, on the schedule, 15 minutes' worth of questions. I'm going to add two minutes to each side for the final round of questions.
Ms. Stubbs, whether you want to take eight minutes or share it with your team, you have eight minutes starting now.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Sure. It's however you want to do it.
Lakeland, CPC
Sure. I appreciate that.
I would like to go back to a couple of the issues that my colleagues were addressing around the concerns about meeting emissions reductions targets in Canada, considering that this is a global challenge and a global issue and that emissions don't respect borders.
As you've all articulated in different ways, obviously decisions have to be made globally, but I think there is a real concern around implementing policies that do what policy-makers and what elected representatives say they will do. It's deeply important to the people I represent, who will certainly have to bear the brunt and the costs of the current plan of the Liberals to impose a broad-based carbon tax on everything. Certainly it will disproportionately—this has been recognized by experts—harm the working poor and people on fixed incomes and disproportionately burden agricultural and energy-based communities. This is just to give you a sense of what my real concerns are on behalf of the people I represent.
I'm a little bit confused about the assertion that the targets will be met without, it seems, substantiation that this is the case. Specifically in the context of the IPCC reporting, very clearly Canada won't meet the targets.
Also, the recent Auditor General's report shows Canada is likely to miss the 2020 targets and is on track to miss the 2030 targets. This was also echoed by the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development.
We really do need more specifics in terms of what exactly the measurements and the reporting of reductions will be. We need transparency, particularly related to the impact of the carbon tax model in its relationship with emissions reductions, both for Canadians and for international partners.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Pan-Canadian Framework Implementation Office, Department of the Environment
Sure. There are a number of things there.
In terms of carbon pricing, I'm not the expert on carbon pricing. We have a dedicated team in Environment Canada that have come before this committee several times. I can't delve into any great detail on the design of the carbon pricing system, but it's certainly been a topic of lots of debate.
In terms of the impact, there was a study released recently, publicly, on the impacts associated with our proposed policies. In developing a policy, there are a number of steps that must be cleared in terms of internal analysis, consultation and engagement. For any regulations to pass, you need to work through the Canada Gazette process and other things. All of our modelling and all of our analysis is there, and all those steps are there to ensure that we understand the impacts exactly and minimize those impacts at the design stage. That's how we've gone about the development of our policies.
In terms of our progress towards the target, the pan-Canadian framework and the collection of policies that were developed there were part of a fairly lengthy and intense process of developing policy options, sifting through those, and picking out the best policies and the right tools for the right sources of emissions, in consultation with provinces, external experts and others, but specifically for the purpose of achieving the 2030 target.
That's what that policy package is designed to do. There are variables, as oil and gas production has gone up, as GDP has gone up, and as population goes up. These are currents that you're swimming against. You project how much you think those will go up. Sometimes it's more, and sometimes it's less.
It is a national approach, so the contributions of the individual provinces can vary. At any given moment in time, there may be some provinces with quite comprehensive policies, and sometimes less so. There certainly are variables. We can't say, to the tonne and to the day, exactly when the target will be met, but the policy package is designed to achieve that target, and we're working to implement it as quickly as possible, and, as I mentioned, we'll adjust if we have to.
Lakeland, CPC
This isn't necessarily a comment on you, but insofar as the federal government has absolutely presented its carbon pricing model as the cornerstone of its action and the fact that the government's own documents from Environment suggest that the carbon tax should be $300 a tonne, the chief economist, in the development of Alberta's current plan.... Alberta, as you know, of course, was the first jurisdiction in North America to regulate emissions, set targets for reductions and have a carbon tax on major industrial emitters—more than a decade ago—but it seems to lack recognition for that. Even the Alberta chief expert involved in their current plan has said that what he called “the sweet spot” would be $150 a tonne. Experts in Europe say that it would have to be $1,200 a tonne for a full-scale commercial and innovation transition. Also, now, of course, the IPCC report is calling for a carbon tax of $5,500 a tonne.
I would suggest that it is extremely important, and sooner rather than later, that there be a high degree of measurement reporting, transparency and accountability on exactly the emissions that will be reduced by the implementation of the carbon tax. I can tell you why the people I represent are very skeptical about this: because the plan being proposed by the federal government I think most closely does reflect British Columbia's model, which of course is no longer revenue neutral, and in which emissions have increased every year, of course, and in which there have been no reductions in gasoline prices. That should be deeply concerning, given that the vast majority of life-cycle emissions are from tailpipes.
What I understand you to be saying, I think, is that we can't be clear either to Canadians or to international partners that Canada will meet its targets, and the emphasis is on the suite of activities and policy proposals. It seems to me to be quite obvious that the evidence for whether or not a broad-based carbon tax on Canadians of $30 a tonne to $55 a tonne will actually achieve any significant reductions in emissions at all.... We also know for a fact that in terms of the costs the burden will be worst for the Canadian private sector, certain communities and the most vulnerable Canadians, which is especially important, of course, given that the top six major emitters in the world are not self-imposing this kind of carbon tax.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Pan-Canadian Framework Implementation Office, Department of the Environment
I have maybe just a couple of quick ones. I see that the yellow flag is up.
In terms of the various dollar figures bandied about, I would emphasize that those are the kinds of things that people have flagged as illustrative if you wanted to achieve the entirety of the targets. There have been economists who would say that to achieve the target in full you would need a $300 carbon tax.
We've explicitly not done that. We've not tried to achieve the target in full via carbon pricing or any other pricing mechanism. We have applied a whole suite of policy tools, ranging from programs to regulations, funding initiatives, information initiatives and research initiatives—a whole broad collection. I would flag that.
I guess we're out of time. I'm sorry.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Now we'll jump over to Mr. Fisher for eight minutes.
Feel free to share your time with any of your colleagues.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
I will likely have to, depending on the answers.
Ms. Stewart, you said that carbon pricing is getting a lot of interest around the world. I assume you meant that Canada's pollution pricing plan is getting lots of interest around the world.
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
I think what Canada has been doing under the pan-Canadian framework is of great interest to a lot of countries, just in terms of how the pan-Canadian framework came to be and how we were able to get our plan, which was a very inclusive process.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Who else is doing this or something similar? What other like-minded countries are out there?
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
I think there are a lot of countries involved, if you're referring specifically to carbon pricing.
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
Norway, New Zealand, the EU, Mexico, Senegal—
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
When you say there's international interest in carbon pricing—
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
There is.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
—are those the countries you're talking about, or are there a lot of other countries that are looking to some of the world leaders to see what they're going to do before they implement?
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
At the COP, which is the annual UN conference, there are a lot of opportunities to be talking about what we're doing domestically. From our experience at international meetings, there's usually a good deal of interest in our presentations on what we're doing to implement the pan-Canadian framework on carbon pricing, as an example, but also on reducing the use of coal for electricity.
When we share these experiences, there's definitely a lot of interest. We also hear from other countries that are doing similar things and sharing those experiences.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Other than the EU, would groups of countries be partnering?
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
For sure. As part of the different forums I was referring to earlier when I talked about the carbon pricing leadership coalition, New Zealand spearheads a declaration on carbon markets, which is a similar discussion group that talks about how we do emissions trading and ensure environmental integrity. That's just another example of what I mentioned earlier.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
You said Canada, China and the EU were grouping together, and then I lost you. I was trying to jot down notes.
You said they formed some form of collaboration or coalition?
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
Yes, and this is referring to the IPCC report. Negotiators this year and every year are very seized with completing the rule book for the Paris Agreement this year because we feel this is the prime way that we are going to enhance ambition globally to reduce GHG emissions.
Liberal
Director General, Climate Change International and Chief Negotiator for Climate Change, Department of the Environment
I think one way we've worked with China and the EU and Canada to help drive action and getting the rule book done for the Paris Agreement was the three countries together hosted a ministerial group on climate action that brought together developed and developing countries from around the world at the ministerial level to talk about the Paris rule book and the importance of the rule book, the importance of the Paris Agreement in driving ambition. That's one way that Canada has been able to take some leadership internationally to help continue to drive the momentum on climate change.