Environment Committee on Oct. 18th, 2018

[Mark Warawa]

We're right in the middle of a debate as to whether a carbon tax is good for Canada. Canadian farmers, in fact the Grain Growers of Canada, have said they don't support a price on carbon because it increases the price. It means less money to help people in Africa, those who need help through mitigation and adaptation.

The Toronto Star reported the Canadian Federation of Agriculture saying the same thing.

As we increase the price to grow the grain in Canada, it means less money. So a carbon tax is actually hurting what you're trying to do. That is the point I want to make.

You've come here and you're looking to influence the improvements nationally, with policies that will contribute to ending global hunger, and I have an idea.

It is actually from Ted Falk, member of Parliament for the Winnipeg area. He introduced Bill C-239. He highlighted that, for a charitable donation of $400 to a political party, you get a tax deductible receipt for $300 back. It only costs you $100. If you give a $400 donation to the Canadian Foodgrains Bank, you get a $88 tax credit back. His idea was that, as a national policy, if donations to NGOs like yours would get the same benefit as a political donation, that would mean people could give a lot more money and you would get a lot more money. It would have a huge impact. This would result in more money to you.

What do you think of that idea?

[Naomi Johnson]

I think that's an interesting idea.

I'm not an expert on carbon taxes. That's not the focus of our work. I think a lot of farmers we deal with here in Canada feel a little bit attacked by the conversation on climate change. However, many of them will talk about changing weather and how they are farming differently now from the way they used to. All of them will understand that people around the world are impacted by climate change and that we can make a difference toward that.

I think many of them believe that, while there are opportunities in the private sector and other areas, the public sector still has a role to play in increasing those aid levels, so we can support more farmers.

[Mark Warawa]

Giving a tax-deductible receipt the same as for a political donation would mean more money in your pocket. Is that something you may be interested in?

[Naomi Johnson]

We're always interested in more money in the pocket, because it enables us to do a lot more, but I'm not an expert on how that would translate.

[Mark Warawa]

Okay.

That is a bill that, unfortunately, the Liberals voted against, but that maybe can be reconsidered.

Mr. Chair, we had Environment Canada here on Tuesday. I introduced a motion at that time that, in the study of international leadership, we call Volkswagen officials as witnesses and call Environment Canada back. I would like to move that motion. I provided the notice of motion on Tuesday, so I would like to move that now.

If we could deal with it quickly, then we could move right on.

[The Chair]

Okay.

We have a notice of motion before us.

[Mark Warawa]

Could I just speak to that?

[The Chair]

Okay.

[Mark Warawa]

Thank you.

It's important that we provide leadership internationally. That's what this whole study is about. The motion is asking that we have at least two meetings, one to have Volkswagen Canada officials testify before us and the other to meet with Environment Canada officials.

Environment Canada told us that it would be the enforcement branch that would need to come and speak to us. I would see two meetings. The committee may say let's have more than that. But it's important because we heard that the United States provided a $14.7-billion fine to Volkswagen for falsifying the pollution numbers. The government's position is that if it's polluting, it will have to be paying for polluting.

You cannot pollute for free in Canada. This is the government's opportunity to make sure it enforces the regulations. Hopefully, the government will be serious about that commitment to cause research on this and find out why Volkswagen has not paid a fine in Canada yet and what kind of investigation is ongoing.

I think it's timely. Without wasting any more time, unless there are other comments, I think we should vote for that.

[The Chair]

Let's do it then.

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

No, I didn't put my hand up first.

[The Chair]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Bossio.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I want to express my appreciation to our colleague Mr. Warawa for this motion. I think right now, though, we have a study before us that is also vitally important that we do and that we've agreed as a committee we would do. We also know that there are considerations of studies that we wanted to do after this as well. We're happy to consider this once we've looked at what the other studies have put forward. Right now, though, given the commitment we have right now to this study, and the importance of it, I don't feel we should move away from this study.

So no, I wouldn't be in agreement.

[The Chair]

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be brief out of respect for the witnesses.

This is a very interesting study that the committee is working on right now. It's on Canada's leadership role. One of the areas that many developing nations often will want support on is helping to build the institutions—for example, in the proper regulation of energy companies or major companies that have products that end up generating greenhouse gas emissions. I think it is really important that the committee support showing that Canada is a leader in these things and that parliamentarians take our laws very seriously.

I'm not sure about other members, but I will say that when I go door-knocking, from time to time I will come across a Volkswagen owner who has purchased those vehicles and who asks me about the state of this. I think it would be entirely appropriate to include that there is an oversight function, that we're not just looking to pat ourselves on the back but are actually looking to continue to monitor and encourage good compliance with Canadian laws. It's not enough for us to simply pat ourselves on the back for monies that have gone out of the country. We also need to make sure our institutions here in Canada are robust. We need to basically lead the way when it comes to demonstrating leadership not just on GHG emissions but on the rule of law.

[The Chair]

Next on our speaking list is Mr. Hehr.

[Kent Hehr, Liberal, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I look at the motion before me, to me it appears to be more of a narrow-type motion to look into Volkswagen, their emissions testing and the like. When I look at what this committee has been instructed to study at this particular time, which is a study of clean growth and climate change in Canada and international leadership, to me it looks like a much more broad-based topic, something that we can dig into that actually talks about what we're trying to do here in Canada, such as put a price on pollution. We had that very excellent talk that just recently was completed, as well as Canadian Foodgrains and their role on the international scene. They have gone and helped institutions and countries around the world.

I think it's much more prevalent for us to stay on course and deal with the matters we've laid out. Although it's a very interesting topic, it's one that I think would sidetrack us from the main goal here, which is to learn more about clean growth and climate change in Canada and international leadership.

[The Chair]

Thanks for those comments.

Mr. Stetski, you're next on the list.

[Wayne Stetski, Kootenay—Columbia, NDP]

I think it would be an interesting study. I mean, we could ask the analysts to look into it a little bit more, but we should have it put into the lineup with the other studies we're considering rather than proceeding immediately to this study.

[The Chair]

Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Actually I do not share the opinion of my honourable colleague Kent Hehr, who just joined the committee. I think holding these two meetings would clearly show that Canada is a leader and is taking action. We have to send signals that the environment is important, and I think this is a good opportunity to take concrete action.

If we have the necessary flexibility and the time to hold these two meetings during our study, the government might be pleased to have the committee's recommendations and then act quickly. That is why I think this motion is constructive and that it serves the interests of the environment for Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Mr. Warawa, you're next.

[Mark Warawa]

Just as a closing comment, I am flexible if there's a desire to have it immediately after this. That would be fine. I see a fit in international leadership in dealing with this issue because Volkswagen is a vehicle that can be bought around the world. It's manufactured around the world, and it's sold in Canada.

What is the price of pollution, for giving false, inaccurate data to Canadians, to Transport Canada? In the United States it's $14.7 billion. In Canada the price of pollution is zero. It appears to be. If you don't have enforcement and you have speed limits of 100 kilometres and there is never going to be enforcement, people will not obey those, and if the message is that in Canada you can pollute and you won't have to pay, that there is no enforcement, then things like this happen.

It is important that we deal with this. If you want to do it immediately after, fine. I see it as a good fit within...and I would be open to an amendment that we do it immediately after. It is timely. The U.S. has already dealt with this, and we're a little bit late in the game, but it's still not too late to deal with this important issue. Pollution is killing people, and we need to deal with this along with all aspects of pollution.

It is timely, and I hope I can get some support.

Thank you.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Mr. Amos.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I won't belabour the point. I think we all agree that pollution is killing people. The WHO says so, in the tens of thousands every year, but it is also fair to say that because, as I understand it, there is an investigation ongoing, undertaken by Environment Canada's enforcement branch, it would be improper for the legislative branch to interfere with that investigation.

I share the member opposite's concern about the issue of Volkswagen. They've been held to account in Germany. They've been held to account in the United States. It's a big deal, but given there is work ongoing, we, as legislators, should step back, wait for that investigation to conclude and let the investigators and potentially the prosecutors do their work. We should vote on the basis of the motion as brought.