Evidence of meeting #125 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was change.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Thanks.
Mr. Stetski, you're next.
4:05 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
I just want to be clear on what we're voting on. The motion currently says we will undertake a study if we vote in favour versus considering it later on, for clarification.
4:05 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
The way I read it, the motion says we will undertake a study, yes.
Mr. Albas.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Mr. Amos mentioned that it wouldn't be proper for us to have it during an investigation. First of all, it would be inappropriate if it were during a court case and that was going to a judicial body. Right now we don't know if they will face any sanction whatsoever, and it is the role of this place that if consumers are asking questions Canadians would want their members of Parliament to be asking those questions. Perhaps we might be able to get some answers.
We have already seen a full due process in the United States, yet it hasn't happened here. People would want us to see it. As to whether or not it would be as part of this study on international leadership, it would be up to Liberal members or maybe Mr. Stetski to make an amendment.
I just would point out that if nothing happens, then I believe we're not doing our job. If there are charges laid and this does go to court, then Mr. Amos' proposition that we should not be part of it would be totally appropriate, but I would say again there is a public interest in this and committees are the location where individual parliamentarians can actually bring some light to these issues.
It should be worthy of support.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Chair, I move that debate be now adjourned and that we move to the question.
4:10 p.m.
A voice
To be clear, you can move it [Inaudible-Editor]
4:10 p.m.
A voice
There is no vote.
4:10 p.m.
A voice
Sorry, do a vote now.
4:10 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
There are no further speakers.
We need consent to withdraw the motion. Do we have consent?
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
We're willing to vote on the motion right now.
4:10 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
We'll vote on the motion.
(Motion negatived)
That has taken about 13 minutes from our questions. Given that we started with our witnesses about five minutes late, we'll continue with questions until about 4:55, if the witnesses are available to continue through that period. That's Ontario time. I'm not sure where everybody else is.
We were about to go to Mr Stetski.
Mr. Stetski, you have six minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Thank you. It's been interesting to be here in Ottawa, where you often hear two diametrically opposed truths on a number of different topics.
I'd like to go to Hari, please.
In terms of the research you've done, what have you seen or heard about B.C.'s example, and whether GHGs have gone up or down with a carbon tax in place? What has research told you about carbon taxes? Do they hurt or help economies?
4:10 p.m.
Managing Partner, EcoAdvisors
To be clear, we don't conduct academic research on the issue. We look at [Technical difficulty—Editor] examples and opportunities for our clients to make strategic decisions across their operations if they are private sector, or other decisions if they are from the public and [Technical difficulty—Editor] sectors. I will say that I was interested to hear that statement a few minutes ago about emissions going up. It was contrary to the story I heard from Nobel Prize laureate Nordhaus, and I was just looking to see what the actual numbers showed. Doing a quick analysis just now, I note that both per capita emissions and overall emissions in B.C. have been reduced relative to those from 2008, with a slight blip in increased emissions between 2011 and 2013, as per the provincial statistics. That's not a research project in and of itself, and I'd like to look into that issue a little bit more. To me, blips and increases over an annual or biannual period don't necessarily mean that a program isn't working. Also, I would say that a ten-year platform showing a general reduction overall seems to be an interesting data point to look at.
4:10 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Earlier in your testimony you talked about a number of countries that have prices on pollution of different kinds. I'm trying to recall whether you commented on the state of their economies as well, as part of your testimony.
4:15 p.m.
Managing Partner, EcoAdvisors
I didn't comment generally on the state of the economy. I'll note a couple of things on that discussion, and also coming back to the B.C. example. Sometimes we conflate the overall state of economies with one policy decision or market issue, such as the price on pollution. When we talk about the overall cost of living, or the rate of homelessness, or other socio-economic factors, and relate those to one aspect of markets or policies, that's a misrepresentation of what the causal factors actually are.
Over the 45 jurisdictions that do have a price on carbon, whether it's an ETS or a carbon tax, for the jurisdictions where we actually worked to help introduce those prices—in Latin America, Europe, and Australia—for the economies in general, in terms of the influence the carbon tax could have on them, it's tough to say. If you look at the Australian economy and the downturn, that's really related to the resources sector and commodity prices—of iron ore in particular but also of other commodities. Relating that to any issue around a carbon pricing scheme, or the ETS system there, is conflating two very different variables.
If you look at a jurisdiction like Colombia, which has a price on carbon under President Santos' regime—we worked in alignment with President Santos and his team—the economy in Colombia is advancing. But it's due to different factors, including the peace process that was signed, so it's conflating issues to say that that's based on a $3 per ton price on carbon in Colombia. I think it's difficult to make that assessment unless you do a deep economic analysis.
4:15 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Thank you.
Could you comment on the role of small and medium-sized businesses when it comes to climate change? What can they do, and how can government help incentivize SMEs around climate change?
4:15 p.m.
Managing Partner, EcoAdvisors
That's a really good question, and it's a little bit outside of our realm. We tend to target large emitters, large companies, that can have substantial environmental and social gains.
A portion of our business does look at venture-stage companies and SMEs in the international context.
I think how governments can help venture-stage companies around sustainability in general and climate change in particular relates to some of the things the other witnesses have said. There's not necessarily a lack of capital that needs to flow, but a lack of implementers who can help create the right capacities within organizations—whether they're SMEs, local civil society institutions or community organizations—in order to implement practices that are economical and cost-effective, but also technically sound and efficient.
I think that gap is where government can play a role. How do you make the capital turn into impact? That's through technical assistance programs and capacity-building assistance.
I agree with the point that was made by the other witness as well, that providing that money through debt finance is often problematic, especially at the SME level. SMEs in developing countries have a much greater challenge, and the barrier of entry to become an SME in a country like Tanzania, which was mentioned, is much lower. SMEs there are companies that are $10,000 to maybe $200,000 in value, which is a very different scenario from what we're talking about in the Canadian context. Saddling them with a debt burden rather than providing that capacity in other ways to help them build their own economic viability is a detriment to the system.
I think countries at the international, bilateral, and multilateral levels and at the domestic level can support SMEs to develop their capacities in order to succeed.
4:15 p.m.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Wayne, you're down to 10 seconds.
4:15 p.m.
Kootenay—Columbia, NDP
Naomi, just quickly....
Do I get three minutes later, as well?
