Environment Committee on Dec. 6th, 2018

[Gordon Murray]

I think the economics have changed. Wood pellets are clearly.... If you look at the hierarchy of costs, generally speaking, across Canada, the lowest-cost heating fuel is natural gas; second-lowest is wood pellets; third-lowest is oil and fourth would be propane. Of course, if you can go and cut firewood and you're willing to put the sweat in, you can get that for free if you can find it in the right places.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay, but how does this compare now to hydroelectricity on a cost basis? Do you have any numbers for that?

[Gordon Murray]

Against hydroelectricity, it is cheaper, except in Quebec, where there's some particularly low-cost electricity.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

That's a good point.

It's a good point about the by-products, strictly on a by-product level, for wood pellets. I didn't realize that. I had a question about the concept of silviculture, which is now a provincial jurisdiction. I don't even know if it's jurisdictional. I don't know if the feds have ever invested into a silviculture program. It is expensive; I understand that. Are we planting trees anymore? I did it as a Boy Scout, and then it ended there.

Obviously, you mentioned the trees here, but that's probably not a good way to go, is it? We should stick strictly to the by-product level.

[Gordon Murray]

Absolutely. With these products that my colleagues from FPInnovations are talking about, anything that can be stored for the long term—if you can make a product and have it stored in solid wood or in some sort of carbon form or whatever—the longer you can store the carbon for, the better the greenhouse gas impact is.

As far as silviculture goes, again, Canada has fantastic silviculture programs across the country. We have leading forest management, the most certified forests of any county in the world, by far—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Sorry to interrupt, but I don't have a lot of time. Are the provinces specifically investing, or are some provinces much lower than others?

[Gordon Murray]

Generally speaking, the legislation is different in every province. It's provincially managed, but it's usually up to the forest companies to do the reforestation.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay, that was my question. Thank you very much for that.

I was over in London, England recently, and they had a big sign in the tube that said the station was now supported by wood-burning heat. It's as if they were bragging.

[Gordon Murray]

It's the same at Heathrow Airport.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Oh, is it? Well, there you go.

It's quite something, because now we're starting a plant in Newfoundland on the Northern Peninsula, and we're hoping to get another one in central Newfoundland because the demand is so high. However, shipping must be a big part of this, obviously, if Europe is the primary market.

[Gordon Murray]

It's all economies of scale.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Sure.

[Gordon Murray]

In Newfoundland, I know there have been some ups and downs with wood pellets. There was one previously in the Northern Peninsula that didn't work. I think the challenge in Newfoundland has been the scale. You don't have a large enough sawmill industry, so there aren't enough residuals.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

That's exactly right. I understand it now since you've been here, because you talked about the by-product level and not using trees.

I hope I have some time.

[The Chair]

You have a minute and a half.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Okay.

Mr. Thurlow, it's good to see you again, sir.

On fire bags, you outlined the jurisdictions where these bags are feeding into the penstock. This is interesting in many respects, because the big story now in the fisheries area is about plastic getting into our oceans. How does this fit in? I know there are plastics, and from a terrestrial standpoint I see that you put it in the fire bag instead of putting it out, and you convert it and it goes to the penstock.

Can you offer a solution for those of us...? I'm co-chair of the oceans caucus, so I'm looking for an answer. Tell me you have wonderful things to tell me and we're going to save the oceans.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

I would tell you that by reducing the amount of plastic we use as consumers, we are contributing to saving the oceans, but—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Now it's your turn. Let's say we don't.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

To the best of our knowledge.... I have not seen something about recovering fisheries technology in a way that pencils out, but certainly that's something we could look into.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Obviously, this program is important, or it's working in these jurisdictions. Let's say now I'm, God forbid, the Premier of Ontario for some odd reason. Sell me on the fire bag. What's the most essential thing? If I say to you, “I don't have a lot of time right now, so tell me”—

[W. Scott Thurlow]

If you were the Premier of Ontario, I'd say you're going to save a lot of money because the tipping fee coming out of Toronto is $117 or $118 a tonne. We're going to be reducing the amount of waste that's going into the landfill, and we're going to be getting a secondary economic value out of it, whether that's reduced fuel costs or whether that's a brand new virgin plastic.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Describe for me the penstock that you're feeding into.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

It will depend on what markets are available. If you're close to a refinery—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Give me an example in the U.S.

[W. Scott Thurlow]

In the U.S., in Idaho, they're—