Evidence of meeting #137 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forest.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let me thank you all for being here today.
We rarely get five witnesses, or groups of witnesses, at the same time. Unfortunately, I have very little time, but I am interested in the five groups and I have questions for them. I am not saying that other witnesses were less interesting but you are very interesting.
I am going to start with the people from FPInnovations.
How long have you been thinking about carbon capture and focusing your research on it?
President and Chief Executive Officer, FPInnovations
I will let Mr. Martel answer that question about the history of the company.
December 6th, 2018 / 4:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Strategic Partnerships, FPInnovations
Just now, we were saying that there is a natural link between forests and the carbon cycle, because carbon moves into forests and forest products, and it is cyclical.
I am a forestry engineer. We have always managed carbon because trees and lumber store carbon.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
I understand; I know that it is a natural phenomenon.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
It's the life cycle.
However, since when, at FPInnovations, have you been paying particular attention to it? We are now being made aware of the environment, but since when have you been paying more attention to carbon capture?
That's my question.
President and Chief Executive Officer, FPInnovations
I will answer, Mr. Martel.
Our attention to carbon capture does not focus on developing carbon capture technologies.
President and Chief Executive Officer, FPInnovations
Our attention is focused on analysis to find the best way to maximize carbon capture using the natural cycle.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Okay.
Earlier, you mentioned that the industry had invested $21 million in a project. I am interested to hear that the industry should take the initiative and innovate because it is sensitive to the environmental footprint.
Do you have the technologies and processes to replace the toxic products?
Mr. Renou, you presented the fact that you could separate the membranes from the wood to make different products. Can you provide that process to Dow Chemical Canada?
What I just said is very simplistic, but you understand the principle.
President and Chief Executive Officer, FPInnovations
We can talk about it.
Dow Chemical Canada has a level of expertise in chemistry that is absolutely phenomenal and I'm not even going to pretend to seek them out, but I am reaching out to them. I believe that Dow Chemical Canada's teams must be increasingly matched with teams in the bioproducts area so that things can come together more easily.
Let's talk about composites. If you replace all the glass fibre by wood fibre in composites, you reduce the weight of the plastics by 30%. By so doing, you reduce the fuel consumption of automobiles and trains correspondingly. To do that successfully, we need the people from Dow Chemical Canada and the wood industry. We need this co-operation to create a product that moves us forward.
Ms. Wood-Bohm said that perfection is our worst enemy. That's where we are at. We must succeed in making those links. Plastic will never completely disappear. You have to bring plastic from A to H, so to speak.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
I'm going to ask you a very specific question. After processing those composites, is there still carbon capture? Do they still have that property?
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Renou talked about working with Dow Chemical Canada. That's exactly what you mentioned earlier, Mr. Ménard. Instead of working in isolation, we should work together in the common interest. Is that what you meant by that?
Executive Director, Front commun québécois pour une gestion écologique des déchets
That's right, yes.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you very much.
I'll now turn to you, Mr. Murray. I fell off my chair when you said that the provinces and industry would rather burn the residue than send it to you. Did I understand what you said in your presentation correctly?
Executive Director, Wood Pellet Association of Canada
Yes. It's hard to believe.
Executive Director, Wood Pellet Association of Canada
I'm sorry I can't respond in French. You'd go home with a headache if I did.
In areas that are very close to pellet plants, we find we can get access to residues, but as we go further out it becomes challenging. We've worked with primary forest companies, and they've charged us for picking up their waste out of the forest. They tell us we have to pay them $10 a tonne, and if we don't they're going to burn it. We can't afford to pay that amount. We've put all the investment in plant and equipment, and we're making a low-value product with low margins. Therefore, because the tenure holders are the ones who control the fibre, we're not in a bargaining position, so we essentially have to pay whatever amount they say.
There would need to be a ban on slash burning, with exceptions, say, if you could prove there was no other use for it or something—in that case, there could be some limited burning. We're dealing from a position of no bargaining power against....
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you very much.
As I understand it, the federal government could pass legislation to prevent the provinces and the industry from doing that.
Very quickly, I have one last question for you, Ms. Wood-Bohm.
I found it interesting that you proposed a solution. You said that the government should lead by example. To reduce its environmental footprint, you suggested that half of the energy needed to heat government buildings should come from biomass or another technology. That would be one solution. I like the fact that you have solutions.
As an Individual
I'm not sure I got an actual question out of that. I know you're asking me whether I think the federal government should take a leadership position in making use of biomass for heating purposes. I believe that space heating is a particularly easy opportunity because, as I mentioned, the military bases largely work on distributed energy. It would be a matter of changing the fuel source, so that's a particularly simple opportunity. We've just done an analysis of Gagetown. In fact, the most cost-effective method of heating Gagetown is using wood biomass. I have that report, and I can share it with you.
Mr. John Aldag (Cloverdale—Langley City, Lib.)
Thank you.
Mr. Simms, you have the floor.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you, everyone. I don't have a lot of time, so I'll quickly jump into it.
About eight or nine years ago in Newfoundland there was a program based on the idea that wood pellets were now the way to go and the way to heat your home. They put in an incentive whereby if you bought a pellet stove, you would get a subsidy from the government. You would send in your receipt, and they'd give you 10% or 20% of it back.
We haven't had a lot of pellet stoves since then, so I always wonder. At the time it was going on, someone told me that if you're looking at it as a cost alternative, strictly that, whether to burning oil or to hydroelectricity, unless you can buy the wood pellets by the tonne, it's not worth it. Going down to Canadian Tire and buying a bag this big, you're not going to get the efficiencies you're looking for. I don't know if he was right or not, but I suspect he might be.
That's part of our problem, isn't it? We just don't have the size of market.