Environment Committee on Sept. 26th, 2017

[Ry Moran]

You heard me mention a couple of specific communities that we are aware of and have had many discussions with that are actively trying to preserve their schools. The Brantford community with the “mush hole”, Long Plain First Nation, the Muskowekwan First Nation—they're very passionate about preserving their schools.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

What about the others?

[Ry Moran]

We haven't had a full engagement with all the others, but we have to recognize, too, that we start to get down in terms of quality.

We can start with the St. Eugene example, and Algoma and Assiniboia. There are three schools right there that are sort of preserved and not being used as.... Well, Shingwauk, or Algoma, is being used as a commemorative space and a functional space. St. Eugene has that same sort of dual track. So there are three there, and there are another three underneath that. Then we get into buildings that are in more complicated shape.

I should add that Blue Quills college out in Alberta is another example of a space that's currently occupied.

Then we get into some of these more derelict sites, such as Brandon, Birtle, and Elkhorn. Then we just get into the partial remains. For example, at the Port Alberni residential school, the main school building has been knocked down. The gymnasium and the old boys dormitory still stand. At Kamloops First Nation, the gymnasium still stands. The community has done a lot of healing ceremonies in regard to reclaiming that space, but a lot of the other elements of that building are destroyed.

It's a little bit of a mixed bag across the country, but we're really talking about a very limited number of sites, only a few of which are very suited to actual heritage conservation for public education purposes right now.

[John Aldag, Liberal, Cloverdale—Langley City, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Casey wants to jump in, so I'll hand it over to him.

[Bill Casey, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks very much.

I have a specific question. I don't want to address it to anyone in particular, but we're looking for help in my riding.

In Amherst, Nova Scotia, there's a military drill hall that was built in 1915. It's a recognized federal heritage building, but DND has announced that they are going to dispose of the building. The town and the county want to help, but we're looking for ideas on how we can save this incredibly majestic drill hall.

It's described this way on the website for historic sites:

The Armoury was built to house and is associated with the 85th Canadian Infantry Battalion. This battalion was a renowned Nova Scotia battalion, famous for its crucial role in the battle and victory at Vimy Ridge during the First World War.

It has a museum with totally unique exhibits. We want to preserve it, but DND has said they have other facilities nearby that can pick up the load.

Does anybody know of another case where a military facility like a drill hall was repurposed and kept alive and well, or do you have any ideas on how we can find a repurposed use for this building?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Whoever wants to jump in, go ahead.

[Mark Brandt]

The first one that comes to mind is London, Ontario. They had an armoury that was purchased by corporate interests. They turned it into a hotel. They actually had a hotel tower growing out of the centre of the parade ground of the armoury.

In terms of ideas, Mr. Casey, is the building in town or is it out of town? Is it right in Amherst?

[Bill Casey, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It's right in the middle of Amherst.

[Mark Brandt]

I would hope that the good folks of Amherst would be looking for business opportunities, and would first of all go through the opportunities and the ideas. This has to be community-based, at least to start. You need to look at the condition it's in so that if somebody wants to become an investor in a new use for the building.... In other words, the museum could share the overall building with some other uses. If someone wanted to become an investor in that project, they'd want to know what they were getting into. You would need a good building condition report. To start, you would need to take it to the community.

Has that started to happen yet?

[Bill Casey, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

It has, and the community is very interested. We've had one report on the condition of the building. We're seeking a second opinion. The community is very much involved. We have the private sector involved, but we do not have the answer yet. We want to maintain the building as it is, we want to maintain the museum where it is, because there are unique artifacts in this museum that were brought back by the soldiers from World War I and World War II, and they're one of a kind. It's very much part of our community, but we still have not found the answer for it. We haven't found a use for it yet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm going to have to chime in. I gave two more minutes on the time there because we're going to give two minutes to the Conservatives, and I'm going to add two minutes to Mr. Stetski's time, which is just coming up. Then I think we're going to be out of time. I gave you that little extra there, but I have to cut it off, I'm sorry.

[Bill Casey, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

No problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Go ahead, Mr. Stetski.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

My question is going to be for Ms. Prince.

My riding of Kootenay—Columbia is largely rural. We have many small community museums that struggle every year for funding. Have you seen a model, whether it's from some other country or somewhere else, in terms of how countries take care of their heritage better, that we might be able to emulate here in Canada? I'm thinking particularly of a long-term funding model rather than year by year trying to figure out what to do.

[Shannon Prince]

Unfortunately, no. Here in our community, we do have a strong museum network. Even though there are quite a few diverse museums here, we still try to do things collectively. There's also a network of underground railroad sites where we also try to do things collectively, such as marketing, exhibits, and programming, where we can cross-promote each other or make an experience more memorable by suggesting doing A, B, and C. It is hard. I know at one point there was funding. I don't know if it was through the museums assistance program, but they provided funds for small community museum organizations collectively to do small workshops. I think those hands-on workshops are one of the things that small, rural communities are lacking, because to get some kind of subsidy to go to these places.... They're great, and a lot of us don't have that money in the budget to cover them. It's better when we can bring people in to teach 10 of us, as opposed to one going and then coming back to share that knowledge. Everybody can come and we bring someone in to teach us.

I'm looking. I'll let you know, though.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I have a question for Mr. Brandt.

I tell all my constituents from Kootenay—Columbia to come and see me this year or early next year before they close Centre Block for what is sometimes suggested to be 10 years of renovations. Of course, for Canadians who aren't aware, Centre Block is where the House of Commons, the Senate, and the Library of Parliament are located. I have to say when I think about renovations, and I walk down the halls in Centre Block, I look around hoping that they don't touch that or ruin that or change that. When you're renovating a historic building, and this is one of Canada's icons for sure, how do you try to balance off the preservation of those features with practicality and with modern business codes?

[Mark Brandt]

That's the sixty-four-million dollar question. Our firm is involved with the East Block rehabilitation, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

That's the centre of the debate. The first things that happen are comprehensive evaluations to ensure we understand what are the character-defining elements that give an historic place its historic and heritage value. Those are then in a sort of do-not-touch zone: preserve, enhance, do not destroy, and do not make unmitigated changes.

The whole process of rehabilitation is often a change management exercise. Things have to change because it has to be modernized for contemporary use or because there is a problem with integrity and it needs to be restored. Change has to happen, so it's a question of how to manage that change.

There are unbelievable levels of nuance in order to achieve that, but in the case of a place such as the Centre Block, you could be very sure that all of the character-defining elements, all of those aspects that you know and love and wouldn't want to see changed, will be highly respected. It would be quite surprising if new interventions were at a level that did fundamental change to the building.

The Sir John A. Macdonald Building is an example. We had to take the teller counters out of the old banking hall. My gosh, they were a character-defining element, but the new use called for a big ballroom, so there was no way we could keep the teller counters. In that case, they were sacrificed for the good of the overall project.

In a case like that of Centre Block.... Of course, it remains to be seen. They've just given the consultants their working papers to get going on it, but I would expect that it will be largely intact, and wholly intact when it comes to the character-defining elements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Prince, let me say that all the members of Parliament here are very receptive to your magical model. Let us know if you find it and we will be very pleased. Thank you in advance.

My question is for Mr. Brandt.

In your presentation, I believe you said that we could kill two birds with one stone. I am suggesting we make it three birds with one stone by adding the restoration of existing buildings. You talked about heritage preservation and reducing the impact of carbon. You should also mention future operating costs in your presentation. That is my advice. A building that is poorly insulated, poorly finished and poorly restored has major energy losses, I would say.

As I said initially, there are many buildings, infrastructures and needs in our communities in Canada. When a project is presented, is the environmental impact taken into consideration?

When you create an assessment grid for a project, is that impact measured?

The fact that a project involves not only the preservation of an important building, but also has a positive impact on the environment could be an important factor in your selection. It might tip the scales in favour of that project.

Is that approach taken?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Really quickly, please, if possible.

[Mark Brandt]

If I understand your question correctly, you're asking if, when we go through the process of evaluating heritage properties, we are including the environmental elements in that evaluation.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes.

[Mark Brandt]

That's a great question. The short answer is that up until today, the two have been in silos. Heritage conservation and environmental conservation have been in their silos. I think what you're finding right now is that we are at the vanguard of that changing. People are understanding that they are really part of or rooted in the same thing.

When we undertake a heritage rehabilitation project today, because we're improving that building we're looking to improve its environmental performance at the same time, but at the evaluation stage, they are still in separate silos today. I think that's changing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm going to have to end it there.

I want to express my gratitude to each of you for joining us today and for sharing your passion, your wisdom, and your suggestions. We have a shortish study, which means that we have one more week of witnesses. Then we're going to get into the report writing and then come back and work on recommendations.

If you have anything more to share with us that you have heard from the direction of questioning concerning which, as you're heading back to your regular lives, you think, “I wish I had said this”, or “I really want to emphasize that”, we would welcome that information. We'll work it into the report, if we get it early enough—by the end of next week. It would be wonderful if you have any last thoughts to share with us.

Thanks again. We'll end the meeting now.