Environment Committee on Dec. 9th, 2020

[Ben Sharpe]

I can't say specifically how CEPA is set up with regard to how fines and those monies can be earmarked. Thinking about modernization of CEPA, we certainly, as an organization, would be very supportive of being very intentional, particularly with regard to how fines that are levied from the auto sector are mobilized, in terms of supporting not only environmental protection and electric vehicles, but also industrial policy.

As I previously mentioned, we think mobilizing electric vehicle production across the supply chain in Canada is really critical for the success of the Canadian auto industry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Next on the list I have Mr. Saini.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I'll take some time, and if any of my colleagues want to jump in, that's fine. They can just let me know.

I have one question for you, Mr. Sharpe. I read one of your blog posts where you said that “two feds are better than one”. I found that very interesting, because if you look at the alignment of the North American auto market, especially between Canada and the United States, about 98% of the vehicles are sold similarly. You wrote how important it is that if one jurisdiction does some of the work in terms of enforcement, the second jurisdiction didn't necessarily have to do the work or didn't necessarily have to commit that much, because one jurisdiction had already done the work.

How can we improve that in terms of our own legislation here in Canada?

[Ben Sharpe]

Thank you for referencing that blog post. I think the main message from that piece was to emphasize the fact that Canada and the U.S. are certainly integral partners in terms of vehicle and fuel policy, but I do want to make the distinction in terms of how penalties are being assessed.

We certainly think it's the case that it's just not enough that Volkswagen was penalized in the U.S. and that's good enough for the entire world. We really think that each individual country and jurisdiction has the right to assess for itself what the damages were from those actions and to levy penalties accordingly.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I thank you for that, Mr. Sharpe, because I read somewhere that Volkswagen has been also charged in 50 other jurisdictions around the world.

My final question is for you, Mr. Malas. I'm sure you're aware of the environmental damages fund. As you know, a part of the settlement is going to that. Do you think there is any way we can improve it?

[Muhannad Malas]

I think one way that it can be improved—and I haven't looked into this in depth—would be to ensure that fines that are being collected are related to a specific type of damage. Look at the model in the U.S.

For example, on the $196 million we're collecting from VW, is that money going into preventing the kind of pollution that VW caused? Is it going to ensuring reparations or addressing the kinds of pollution and impacts that certain communities faced from that particular violation or offence?

Specifically, when it comes to these fines that are really massive, like the $196 million, we could be making sure that money is going towards moving forward solutions in a significant way, like the electrification issue that Mr. Sharpe writes about.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Great. Thank you very much.

I'll pass my time over to MP Longfield now.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Sharpe, I wanted to continue on the thought about the types of chemicals that are damaging to human health and animal health and, for that matter, plant health, when we're looking at the broader impacts through CEPA. I also chair the all-party health research caucus. We just had presentations from researchers on pollen counts and particle counts from forest fires, and you're mentioning NOx.

I want to unpack that a bit as to whether your organization is looking at all types of pollution and the health effects coming from each, and whether they should be included in CEPA.

[Ben Sharpe]

Yes, absolutely. As an organization, we take a multi-pollutant view of vehicle exhaust. Certainly, it's much more of a story beyond just nitrogen oxides. It includes particulate matter. It includes toxics. It includes road wear from tires.

Really having a comprehensive view of vehicle exhaust we think is critical. In terms of assessing health impacts, again, we look at as much we can across that pollutant profile.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

This gives us a good case study from which to base further studies. We're hoping to see the CEPA review come once it's been tabled in the House, which will be in the next little while, hopefully, and we won't run out of parliamentary time to have you back to unpack that a little more.

I want to thank you for your contribution to today's discussion. I'll turn it back over the the chair, unless you have another comment. We have a few seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 25 seconds left. If you have something to add, please go ahead. If not, there's no obligation.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In my 25 seconds, I'll say that the mandate of this committee isn't to get into the legalities, but really to look at policy impact, and I think we've had a very good discussion around that this afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Indeed, I would like to thank the witnesses for making their considerable expertise available to us. I think we've learned a lot this afternoon. It's a very good start to our study.

I would also like to thank the analysts. They put together a stimulating panel of witnesses in record time. This was really good.

As I mentioned in the beginning, I wanted to set aside 15 minutes to discuss the third report of the steering committee. I propose that we discuss it in camera since we're going to talk about the contents of the report and it's quite confidential.

If no one objects, we will sit in camera. This implies that we disconnect and reconnect under different codes that will be sent to you.

It will take five minutes to make the transition.

Thanks again to the witnesses...

I see Mr. Baker's hand up.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Chairman, have the codes for the in-camera meeting already been sent?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Apparently so.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I did not receive them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll look into this.

Mr. Albas, you have the floor.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I didn't want to interrupt your thanking the witnesses. We do appreciate their participation today.

Mr. Chair, it shouldn't be up to you to be the super of motions and chair. So what I'm going to suggest is this. I move to go in camera for the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I appreciate that very much. It was becoming a big burden on me to do both. I'm just getting used to the procedures of a committee.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We can check our inboxes. The emails are there now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You got it? Okay, great.

Thank you again to the witnesses and to the members for their great questions.

[Proceedings continue in camera]