Environment Committee on March 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

We're meeting today, pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), to consider the supplementary estimates (C), 2020-21, referred to the committee on Tuesday, February 16, 2021.

Everyone knows the rules, but I'll mention them anyway.

Members may speak in either official language. There's interpretation. You may choose the language you wish to listen to before speaking. Please unmute your microphone. To the witnesses and members, please address all your comments and questions through the chair.

Welcome, Minister. We also have deputy minister Christine Hogan, and Stuart Parley, director general, financial management directorate and deputy chief financial officer.

From Parks Canada, we have the president and chief executive officer, Ron Hallman, and the vice-president, finance directorate, Catherine Blanchard.

Minister, you have five minutes for your opening comments.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I'm happy to meet with you for the fourth time as Minister of Environment and Climate Change to discuss the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (C) for Environment and Climate Change Canada and the Parks Canada Agency.

I am joining you today from North Vancouver, which is on the traditional ancestral and unceded territories of the Squamish, the Tsleil-Waututh and the Musqueam first nations.

As the chair noted, I am joined by a number of officials.

It was about one year ago tomorrow that I first appeared at this committee as Minister of Environment and Climate Change on the supplementary estimates (B), a day before Parliament shut down due to the pandemic.

It has certainly been a difficult year for all Canadians. Despite the challenges of the pandemic, I have appreciated our ongoing engagement even if only through virtual means.

Since we last met in December, the focus of the government has remained primarily on supporting Canadian families and Canadian businesses to get through the COVID crisis.

Taking action on climate change, addressing biodiversity loss and the scourge of the pollution in our national environment are clearly critical issues. Our response to them will define the future that we will bequeath to our children and grandchildren.

The strengthened climate plan, introduced by Prime Minister Trudeau and me on December 11, includes new and strengthened federal measures to not only meet but to exceed our Paris Agreement target.

The supplementary estimates (C) for 2020-21 reflect an important part of this work. For Environment and Climate Change Canada, it amounts to a net increase of $70.7 million that would bring the department's total authorities to $2.1 billion.

The largest request for $55.1 million supports habitat protection measures and direct recovery actions to stabilize populations of the central group of southern mountain caribou in British Columbia, while supporting the livelihoods of workers and their communities.

Another request to access $9.2 million in operating funds allows us to continue delivering on the 2019-20 pollution pricing proceeds through the climate action incentive fund.

There is support for the continuous operation of the Dr. Neil Trivett Global Atmosphere Watch Observatory in Alert, Nunavut, and a $2.4-million increase will help the department to modernize the enforcement of environmental laws and regulations. There is also $1.3 million to maintain shared assets on hydrometric monitoring sites. These advances will be offset by provincial and territorial partners.

Finally, there are transfers from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food for the greening growth in the agriculture and agri-food sector, and to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to support the national climate education proposal from Ocean Wise.

And now, Mr. Chair, let's turn to Parks Canada.

Last spring, Parks Canada took measures to limit the spread of COVID-19 by temporarily suspending visitor access and services at national parks, national historic sites and national marine conservation areas across the country. Between June and December, Parks Canada gradually reopened sites, allowing over 13.4 million visitors to benefit from being outdoors and in nature in a safe and responsible way.

Through the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (C) the Parks Canada Agency is seeking to increase its reference levels to the amount of approximately $54.2 million. Up to $54 million of this amount will cover the potential shortfall in revenue over the last six months of the fiscal year from visitation and areas such as the sale of permits and services. There is also a transfer from Fisheries and Oceans Canada to support work related to the federal contaminated sites action plan.

Finally, there are other adjustments, which do not change the agency's reference level: a $9.3-million internal vote transfer to the new parks and historic sites account and a $10-million internal grant transfer to implement the impact benefit agreements for the Nahanni National Park Reserve.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to stop here.

I hope this summary provides members with an overview of the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (C).

I'm happy to take questions now from members of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Minister, and thank you again for being with us this afternoon.

We will begin the first round with Mr. McLean.

Welcome, Mr. McLean. I hope you enjoy your time with the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and distinguished colleagues.

As well, welcome, Minister. Thank you very much. I understand that you take these hearings very seriously. I appreciate that you're here, and I'm glad that I get a chance to ask you some questions. I'm going to get right into it.

In the 2019 election, your party, your government, pledged to plant two billion trees as part of its $3-billion effort to deploy natural climate solutions. At the committee I'm on, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Natural Resources, department officials and others indicated that there were no plans at that point in time, a year later, to actually facilitate that. As a matter of fact, after delving into it somewhat, we found out that they didn't know how they would do that, where they would do that, when they would do that or even, after much probing, why they would do that.

You may not be aware, but the forest industry itself plants about 600 million trees a year—three for every tree it cuts down—so about 400 million, if you say are going to be planted.... Your government's plan doesn't seem to be more than five years' worth of that. It's going to do this over 10 years.

Our forest stock in Canada is about 380 billion trees. Your plan for natural environmental solutions amounts to one half of one per cent of our carbon storage through trees over the next 10 years. As a further fact, most of these trees don't start absorbing significant carbon until they're at least 10 years old, so you're not accomplishing anything by 2030.

Can you square this for any of us, please, about how this contributes to our country's decarbonization efforts?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Well, sure, and thank you for the question.

First of all, I think you probably just need to make sure you're differentiating things. If in fact you're talking about the forestry industry, you're talking about planting trees for the purpose of regeneration and then effectively cutting them down. The program we have in place, the two billion trees, is really about planting trees in areas where they essentially will continue to exist for the purpose of carbon sequestration, but also for biodiversity enhancement.

We committed to two billion trees. You would have seen that there was money in the fall economic statement, $3.6 billion starting in 2021-22, to plant those trees. There is an expression of interest already out there for the early stage in terms of planting this year and for later stages in terms of ramping that up over time.

I would tell you that certainly you are correct that the number of megatonnes in the short term from the trees is not enormous, but by 2050, it is quite significant, and there is an enormous co-benefit from a biodiversity perspective in terms of planting trees along seismic lines to protect boreal caribou. In fact, that's part of the work we're doing with the Government of Alberta to protect boreal caribou. Absolutely, it's an important part. Canadians want to see nature-based solutions as part of the way in which we fight climate change.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you. I didn't quite follow all that.

It was $3.16 billion that was actually your budget for this, but the Parliamentary Budget Officer came out immediately thereafter and said that the minimum this is going to cost is $5.94 billion, and that's if you're planting on level farmland, as if there are not hills or valleys.

Also, then your government comes out and says, effectively, that it wants to start in the cities. For the baseline we're talking about here, when you're talking about it, what would that be, about $160 per tree? The Parliamentary Budget Officer came out with a base that is about twice as high per tree as it is on level land, on farmland.

In fact, when you talk to Trees Canada, which plants trees in urban centres, where your government says it's going to initiate this, the minimum it's going to cost is $25 per potted tree. If you think about that, if one-fifth of the trees you're talking about planting are actually in urban areas, you're already way over budget.

Square this for me on how you guys are actually coming up with numbers about how this is going to impact Canadians.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'd be happy to do that, although I would correct things that you said.

Planting some of these trees in urban areas is important. It's important in the context of creating shade and helping to further nature and opportunities for nature within urban environments, in the same way that the development of urban parks will be. The vast majority of the trees, however, are not being planted in urban areas and nobody has ever said that they were.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer did a review of this program. I would just say to you that the Parliamentary Budget Officer chose certain types of trees that would not normally be those you would plant in the particular ecosystem you're looking at. We remain confident that the number and amount we've allocated is sufficient to be able to plant the two billion trees.

It was $3.12 billion, but it was overall $3.6 billion for nature-based solutions, because there's money in there for wetlands and grasslands restoration as well.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

The Parliamentary Budget Officer's numbers were at the low end of where industry was as far as what it costs to plant trees, so I'm not getting that. However, let's move on. Let's talk about another matter.

In the last week, your government has moved forward and has finally become engaged with the provincial governments to pursue carbon capture utilization and sequestration, something that I and my party have been pushing as a strong solution to our decarbonization efforts in the economy. As everyone acknowledges, it represents the most effective way to decarbonize our economy. In contrast to planting trees, the environmental results from this approach will manifest very quickly, not just starting 10 years from now.

Given the overwhelming evidence in support of this environmental solution, my question is, what took you so long?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 25 seconds, Mr. Minister.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

First of all, carbon capture and sequestration is a tool. It is not a climate plan. A climate plan is a comprehensive approach to figuring out how you're going to reduce emissions in every sector of the economy. It includes technologies, but it's not solely technologies. Carbon capture is useful, and that has been clear for some time in specific applications, but it is not a climate plan. To be honest with you, the Conservative Party's riding on this under Stephen Harper and under Andrew Scheer, I mean, people in Canada recognize that this is not a plan. It is just not a plan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Minister, you may continue your response shortly.

Mr. Baker will be sharing his six minutes with Ms. Saks.

Mr. Baker, you have the floor.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

Minister, I have three minutes, but I don't know if you want to finish what you were—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I seem to have lost Mr. Baker, but the question was whether you wanted to continue your answer, Minister.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Am I not waiting for his question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Baker is having some problems. His connection is frozen.

Basically, he was inviting you to continue your answer.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Certainly.

I was with Premier Kenney and other ministers in the Alberta government yesterday to talk about the creation of a carbon capture and sequestration working group as part of federal-provincial co-operation.

Minister Nixon and I have been talking about this for a long time as part of an approach that also looks at other areas in which the Alberta government is certainly interested in working—hydrogen, biofuels and a range of other things.

Clearly, we have to have solutions that are solutions in all regions of this country. I would just say that for folks who understand the climate issue in depth, carbon capture and sequestration can be a useful tool; it is not a climate plan.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I hope you can still hear me. I apologize for the Internet issues.

Minister, we spend a lot of time in Parliament discussing laws that should be passed to protect our environment, but of course, so much of protecting our environment depends on enforcing the laws that are already in place. In the supplementary estimates there is a request for funding to modernize the enforcement of environmental laws and regulations in the amount of approximately $2.4 million.

Could you tell us which laws this funding will allow us to enforce and how it will allow us to better protect our environment?

I believe I have a minute left in my time before I turn it over to Ms. Saks.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

For the enforcement part of it, obviously you have to have good laws. Also, you have to be able to ensure that you're enforcing those laws. This money is to enhance our ability to ensure that we are effectively enforcing a range of laws, including the Canadian Environmental Protection Act and the Fisheries Act. It is the beginning of a $50-million enhancement of our capacity to ensure that we have not only the tools internally, but also the boots on the ground to do the work that needs to be done.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I pass the rest of my time to Madam Saks.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Baker, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Wilkinson, this is the first time we're actually able to meet, albeit virtually. It's an honour to be on this committee, and it's a pleasure to meet with you today.

Many of my constituents are benefiting from the climate action incentive and support the price we put on carbon pollution. Unfortunately, there are still quite a few misconceptions about how the price on carbon pollution and the climate action incentive actually work to reduce emissions.

I notice a line related to climate action incentive in the supplementary estimates. Can you explain how the program works in provinces that do not have a price on carbon and the environmental and financial benefits Canadian families will receive from it?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

That's a great question. Thank you very much.

Let me start by being clear about what putting a price on pollution is for. Pricing carbon pollution isn't about raising revenues. It's about recognizing that pollution has a cost, empowering Canadians and encouraging cleaner growth and a more sustainable future. It is a price signal.

It is widely seen to be the most economically efficient way of a market-based mechanism to reduce carbon emissions. The vast majority of Canadian economists and other economists would tell you exactly that.

Under the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act, all of the proceeds collected under the fuel charge on fossil fuels must be returned to the jurisdiction that they were collected in.

The majority of Canadian families are actually better off. They get more money back than they pay in the price on pollution. Also, we use some of the money to help businesses and schools to actually enhance their energy efficiency, reduce their energy costs and cut their greenhouse gas emissions.

Canadians know that putting a price on pollution will help reduce emissions and protect the environment for future generations. Returning proceeds from carbon pricing pollution addresses affordability. It is an important part of a really thoughtful and comprehensive climate policy.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister.

As a mother I'm concerned about the future of my kids. My constituents are concerned as well. The importance of fighting climate change is paramount to them. Having Canada and the federal government be a leader and an enthusiastic fighter in the fight against climate change is a priority.

The estimates outline a number of climate-oriented programs to reduce GHG emissions. Can you provide your department's targets and the steps being taken to really get us there?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Sure. As you know, we developed in 2015-16 the pan-Canadian framework, which was the first thoughtful and comprehensive climate plan that Canada had. It identified an enormous number of reductions, but there was still work to do. In December, the Government of Canada brought forward a strengthened climate plan that showed how we will not only meet but will exceed our current Paris Agreement targets.

We did that through regulations, through an escalation on the price of pollution and through significant investments with respect to accelerating climate action.

We're now working with the provinces and territories and others on increasing ambitions to achieve even greater emission reductions by 2030 to align with the goals of the Paris Agreement. We've indicated that we will be bringing a new target to the earth summit in the United States in April.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Chair, I'm just keeping a check on the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 35 or 40 seconds.