Environment Committee on March 17th, 2021

[Helen Ryan]

I thank the member for her question.

I want to make the point that we have a multifaceted proposal for plastic waste management and reduction so that we can make sure we reach our targets. I think we have to work on all these measures to achieve that, and that includes taking a close look at how we manufacture products, at how packaging is made and recycled, and at standards. We have to make sure we have the necessary infrastructure, but we also have to reduce the amount of waste produced.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I was getting to that.

[Helen Ryan]

That is part of a more comprehensive approach. We have to reduce the amount of waste by reusing and transforming products.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You talked about production. We know there are biosourced products now. These are products that can be made from wood fibre, for example, and that can replace plastic. However, in Canada, subsidies for plastic production are five times higher than for recycling. That strategy needs to change.

Can you square those numbers with plastic waste reduction targets?

On the one hand, we want to reduce waste, but on the other hand, we subsidize the cost of producing it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

A quick answer, please.

[Helen Ryan]

I thank the member for her question.

I would say that part of our approach is innovation. We need that innovation.

I'll ask my colleague, Mr. Drouin, to speak to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm sorry, but we have to move on to the next round.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the witnesses to send us more information about subsidies for the plastics production and recycling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

I would ask the witnesses to send us that information.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You mentioned that the new rules, the current rules, now cover final disposal. Those were accepted December 29. Those are the plastic waste amendments that came into force. I just want to get really clear about the other amendment, which Canada hasn't signed, the Basel ban amendment covering hazardous waste and waste for special consideration.

Could Bill C-204 address the problems in that ban amendment, which we haven't signed on to, and address some of those aims?

[Helen Ryan]

I would point out that Canada has not ratified the ban amendment because it prohibits the export of hazardous waste for recycling. It is important to point out that Canada's domestic regulations have provisions in place that have outcomes similar to a ban. If an importing country has an import prohibition in place for a certain waste, then the export to that country cannot take place. Therefore, if a party has ratified the ban, our regulation prohibits the export of hazardous waste to these parties. That's already in place.

The environmentally sound recycling of hazardous waste is important for the environment and supports a circular economy. As an example, car batteries are exported for metal recovery purposes. This can lead to environmental and economic benefits.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

That provision you're talking about, that safeguard for countries who haven't signed on to the Basel Convention.... We've heard a lot about the agreement that was signed with the United States. It sounds like, from what you're saying, there are mechanisms in place to prevent them from exporting to countries who don't have the infrastructure to deal with it.

We just had a legal analysis, published by the Center for International Environmental Law, that highlighted major inconsistencies between Canada's legal obligations under the Basel Convention and the agreement the U.S. and Canada signed. Also referenced a few times at this committee was The New York Times article talking about how new trade data for January shows that American exports of plastic scrap to poorer countries have actually stayed the same, and scrap plastic exports overall have risen.

Environmental watchdogs are saying that this is evidence that they're ignoring the rules, and that American companies are actually interpreting the law and these new rules in ways that still allow them to ship overseas. I am just curious to know how Environment Canada is dealing with some of that information.

[Helen Ryan]

I'm not clear on what the question is. I apologize.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It sounds to me like the United States-Canada deal isn't actually addressing the concern that exports are going to poorer countries without the infrastructure to deal with it, and that there is this loophole. Our environmental stakeholders and this new report from the Center for International Environmental Law are saying the same thing.

I'm just curious to hear a response on some of those concerns.

[Helen Ryan]

As I mentioned, under our arrangement we've confirmed that the United States has an environmentally sound management of non-hazardous waste and scrap that are subject to transboundary movement. A company that is wanting to transit through the United States and export to another country is required to obtain an export permit.

However, having said that, no environmental regime is bulletproof. Should someone choose to contravene the regulations and take actions that are not permitted, our regulations and legislation don't prevent that. That's when our enforcement regime comes into play. We need to follow up and make sure we're taking corrective action. The the same holds true for the United States, or any other country for that matter.

On that note, I might just say that Canada has taken action recently with respect to the illegal export of waste and has put in place an operation with a number of other countries to look at whether we are effectively managing these wastes. This exercise was undertaken with Canadian border services as well.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Great. That's a good segue into my next question, which is about the report published in 2016 showing these huge gaps in controlling exports at the border. The report found the CBSA doesn't have the capacity to inspect up to a third of the shipments that are designated as high risk. There have been lots of high-profile cases. We've talked about the Philippines, etc.

Can you describe how ECCC works with the Canada Border Services Agency and Global Affairs Canada to prevent some of these shipments of waste overseas?

[Helen Ryan]

Yes, thank you for the question. I might just note that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Be very brief, please.

[Helen Ryan]

—we do take action to deal with alleged violations under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, including, first, doing awareness sessions and making sure that our regulatees understand what their legal obligations are. We also take follow-up actions, including having authorities like ministerial orders, detention orders for shipments, injunctions, etc.

We have undertaken recently, as I mentioned, a specific operation with a number of other countries, targeting movements at the border. We did so in conjunction with the Canada Border Services Agency. We used behavioural intelligence to help target the shipments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have time for a second round.

Mr. Albas, you have five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for the work they do for Canadians. It's quite good to have you here.

Ms. Ryan, in your remarks you said:

...an export permit is required for the export of plastic waste subject to the convention from Canada to a Basel party. This is a concrete and effective mechanism to ensure that exports of plastic waste covered by the convention take place only if the consent of the importing country has been obtained.

A huge issue is that the United States is obviously not a Basel party, and thus the U.S. could be used as an export loophole to avoid the rules.

Many members have raised questions. We talked about The New York Times piece. Are you not worried?

[Helen Ryan]

As I mentioned, Canada recently entered into an arrangement with the United States, with respect to the management of wastes that are destined to the United States for final disposal. With respect to waste that's transiting on, that material requires an export permit and it requires an export permit in Canada.

I think we will need to continue to make sure that we're diligent in terms of making sure our industry complies with its obligations and that we continue to work internationally with partners with respect to these issues.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

With respect to these issues, in the minister's response to Question No. 299 to Scot Davidson, it actually said that the ECCC is not issuing permits regarding exports of plastic waste. Since 2016, you issued no permits. Now that the Basel Convention has taken hold, you will track some information and some permits.

Will you be tracking permits to the United States under this agreement?

[Helen Ryan]

I'll turn to Nathalie Perron to speak to the specifics of what's required under our regulation and what's required under the arrangement. There are different requirements with respect to the different types of waste.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I would only like to hear about whether or not there will be permits to the United States in regard to this agreement we have.