Evidence of meeting #19 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
Director, Waste Reduction and Management Division, Department of the Environment
There will be permits to the United States for waste that is not covered under the Basel Convention, that is not subject to the scope of the Basel Convention on which—
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
Will plastic waste for final disposal be permitted, yes or no?
Director, Waste Reduction and Management Division, Department of the Environment
For hazardous waste we'll need a permit, and all the waste that will transit through the United States will also need a permit, whether it's non-hazardous or not.
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
MP Collins had mentioned earlier that the Center for International Environmental Law said that the arrangement the Canadian government has, which contains 11 operative paragraphs, does not meet article 11 of the Basel Convention requirements and, therefore, must be considered invalid.
It says further in the report that they do not believe the United States is equivalent to a Basel-abiding country. Do you believe it is an equivalent?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I will turn to my colleague Richard Tarasofsky to answer with respect to trade issues.
Deputy Director, Oceans and Environmental Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Thank you very much.
I have also read the report from the Center for International Environmental Law. They make a number of allegations in that report. I would say that Canada has based the arrangement on an assessment that the United States carries out environmentally sound management of its wastes. That is what the arrangement is based upon.
The arrangement affirms that it carries out this environmentally sound management of non-hazardous waste and scrap. It also contains a commitment to further manage those wastes and scrap in its environmental—
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
In regard to that, though, The New York Times piece on March 12 of this year literally says:
If the United States were to ratify the Basel agreement—which would require Congress to pass legislation—traders found to be shipping plastic waste overseas could be prosecuted. But short of that, the United States government is limited in its ability to stop plastic waste exports.
Even if there were traceability, there are no provisions under U.S. law that would allow them to enforce that mechanism. How can you say it's equivalent?
Deputy Director, Oceans and Environmental Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I can't comment on the effectiveness of U.S. law, but I would say that, in all likelihood, the waste leaving the United States would be destined for a party to the Basel Convention.
Deputy Director, Oceans and Environmental Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The only way that can take place is if there is an agreement between the United States and that importing country and, therefore—
Conservative
Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC
If the United States can't charge under their own laws, I don't see how it could be under ours.
Deputy Director, Oceans and Environmental Law Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
—it would only be subject to the—
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
We have to go to Mr. Saini now.
Your five minutes are up, Mr. Albas.
Mr. Saini.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Ryan, I want you to clarify certain things for me. We've been talking about a lot of different things, so let's make it as succinct as possible.
You mentioned in your opening remarks that Canada had accepted the plastic waste amendments under the Basel Convention on December 29, 2020, to “strengthen controls on the transboundary movement” of plastic waste. Can you explain to me, in succinct language, what these amendments will actually do?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I want to turn to Nathalie Perron to provide you that answer.
Director, Waste Reduction and Management Division, Department of the Environment
Those amendments now have the effect that all plastic waste, except the very clean waste, going to a Basel party is now subject to the regulations and requires a permit prior to export. In order to have a permit, one has to obtain consent from the importing country. It's through the notification and permitting processes that we see consent from the importing country. It's only when we receive consent that we emit a permit.
Liberal
Director, Waste Reduction and Management Division, Department of the Environment
As I said before, the bill focuses on a ban for plastics destined for final disposal only. Our domestic regulation with the new Basel amendments applies to both final disposal and recycling.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Accepting the Basel amendments effectively is what this bill is trying to say....
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I don't think it's for us to speak to what the intent of the bill is. I think it's for the proponent to speak to that, but in terms of the authorities, we have the authority to do the nature of the work that has been described.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Okay.
My second question, because this has also been raised, is on the arrangement between Canada and the United States. I would like clarity on that also, because one of the concepts is having something disposed of in an environmentally safe manner. Does that arrangement between the United States and Canada guarantee that?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Thank you for the question.
What I would say is that the arrangement with the United States confirms that, through our assessment of their regulatory regime, it's our view that they have an environmentally sound management of the material.
As I mentioned previously, there's no regime that will guarantee.... There's no way to guarantee any regime, because it's about people's behaviour and whether they choose to comply with the regime. That's why we have robust enforcement and compliance promotion to help ensure that regulatees are adhering to the rules.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
As you're aware, solid waste management also involves the provinces and the territories. If we were to ban the export of plastic waste for final disposal, we would have issues with solid waste that comes from municipalities, which are also governed by the provinces. However, for that immediate prohibition, how would that impact domestic landfilling capacity?
If you can't send it, you have to do something. How would it conflict with municipal and provincial agreements, but also with landfill capacity, if we were to immediately prohibit the export of plastics?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I'll turn to Nathalie Perron to answer that question.