Environment Committee on April 26th, 2021

[Tony Moucachen]

There have been many studies that show that each tonne of recycled resin reduces the carbon footprint by 1.5 tonnes. There are some that have been done by the federal government. Those studies exist today.

In regard to the resin, there's one thing I would like to mention. We recycle polypropylene two, and not only one and two. We also recycle four and five, and there are some markets for those that are quite good right now.

It's a fluid environment, though. We're competing against commodities that are very fluid. It's feast or famine, and our communities are looking for recycling today and tomorrow, regardless of whether oil is selling at $150 a tonne or at $20 a tonne. They don't want their package to be in our natural environment. They want their product to be out of there, recycled and dealt with. That's the challenge we're facing.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

That leads me to my next question, which would be for you. Would a recycled content standard and an extended producer responsibility expand the market for recycled plastics and create jobs in the recycling industry?

[Tony Moucachen]

I firmly believe that it does both. There's an environmental benefit, and it has a social and economic benefit too, for the community.

The environmental benefit has been studied in terms of reducing 1.5 tonnes of carbon for each tonne of recycled product you're making, versus incinerating it or landfilling it.

In terms of jobs, the product still needs to be sorted and recycled, so it's basically community jobs that are going to be created.

In regard to the recycling rate, it's a bit misleading, because a lot of products we make in Canada in virgin resin are exported. When you look at what we have produced versus what we recycle, I don't know if you could use it, because some of the products we make in virgin resin are exported all over the world.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

That still has a global impact, which we are a part of.

Maja Vodanovic, like you, when I go to the grocery store, I have tremendous anxiety when shopping. There are places in the world, like in Germany, where they have grocery stores where you come in with your containers. We're not there yet in Canada.

It's a lot of pressure on the consumer. How are we supposed to expect 38 million consumers to be perfect in their recycling, when they don't have the information they need right now? There's a lot of pressure on the consumer end to fix this problem. Would it be better for industry to be responsible for ensuring the recyclability, collection and recycling of their products? Professor Olivier talked about that in relation to masks.

Should we have bins, or is there a way that producers should be collecting? We've seen protests where folks leave all their plastic packaging at a grocery store.

I'd like some comments from either of you on that perspective.

[Maja Vodanovic]

Extended producer responsibility is exactly that. The producers who make the brand names and the product have to take care of it all the way until the end. The onus is on them. It's not on the consumer. Do you understand?

I wish I could have more time because it is such a complex issue. Let's say the consumer has five shampoo bottles, and he sees the eco-fees on the five. If one of the shampoo bottles costs 40¢ because it's impossible to recycle, that's your environmental fee. One is zero cents because it's made out of recycled resin and it's reusable. Then you will choose that as a consumer. You will not have that anxiety.

That's where I would like us to go. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll go to the third round, which will be kicked off by Mr. Jeneroux.

You have five minutes, please.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us this afternoon. It's afternoon in Edmonton, where I am.

We know most witnesses who have already appeared before our committee have agreed that reducing plastic waste is vital. That being said, we've also heard about the inevitable negative impacts on Canadian jobs, as well as a loss of major investments due to the labelling of the plastics as toxic. My colleague explained well in the last meeting that while industry may understand the definition of toxic under CEPA, most Canadians hear toxic and think of something that is very dangerous and that can kill you—things such as asbestos.

My first question is on jobs, and I'll turn to our friend at Merlin Plastics first, to get his perspective.

Do you agree that there's a potential for Canadian jobs to be lost if nothing changes?

[Tony Moucachen]

Could you please be more specific?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I'm sorry. It's with regard to the toxic label, if nothing changes with regard to the toxic label right now under CEPA.

[Tony Moucachen]

I fundamentally believe that plastics are not a toxic and should not be under the toxic label. Putting them under toxic will cause harm to Canadian industry. Also, it misleads the public, as you have said. People are going to understand toxic as something that's going to kill them, yet plastics save lives.

We just heard from Monsieur Olivier. He's recycling the masks, and we know the benefit of the masks to prevent COVID-19. By putting a label that this is a toxic material, some people are going to understand exactly the definition of what it means, but the majority of people may or may not understand it, and by labelling it in that way, it's going to trickle down to anybody who is in the plastics manufacturing business. Virgin resin can be a moulder or can be a recycler.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Where are these jobs, in your opinion? Are they located here in Canada?

[Tony Moucachen]

Yes. I don't have the complete...but there are jobs in making virgin resin in Canada. There are multiple jobs. It's a big industry. There are jobs in moulding product across Canada, everywhere, in Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, Alberta. People are making products: food packaging, soft drink packaging, beverage containers and every article that is made out of plastic. All of a sudden, people will say, “Hold on a second. Is this going to hurt me?” I personally believe it's going to hurt to label plastics as toxic. Also, to me, it's not toxic. I have it in my fridge. I go to the hospital and it's there in the IV. It's everywhere.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

You bring up a good point. It is everywhere. I think about the hospitals here in Edmonton, Alberta, that are using the IV bags, plastic bags. Labelling those as toxic could have an impact on whether or not we could use those bags.

On the employment of people who make those bags, do you have any analysis on perhaps the number of jobs or the impact that this would have on, say, small businesses that we've heard from on this? I'm trying to get the scope of how big this would be.

[Tony Moucachen]

I know it's very big, but I don't have.... I know people who have it and I can get it for you. The plastics industry should have something of that sort, so I can get that information for you. I don't have it—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I appreciate that. I think that would be extremely helpful as we write our report.

This will be my last question. I'll get you to weigh in, if you don't mind. Do you think the reduction of plastics is attainable without this label?

[Tony Moucachen]

Yes, I believe it is. Economics works, just like Maja mentioned. If you have a choice, you just have to price it correctly. What's the environmental impact? Then you have to price it properly. We know incentives work. They work everywhere. They work in our personal lives. In my life, they work with my kids, and in work. If you incentivize a job, it's going to be done and it's going to be done well.

I don't personally believe in a ban. It's like a stick versus a carrot, and it has been proven that a carrot works better than a stick.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We will go now to Mr. Longfield for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses and, again, to the clerks for a very interesting panel this afternoon.

Mayor Vodanovic, you made a comment that Canada is not heading toward better recycling. We heard something similar from the recycling businesses in British Columbia and Alberta a few meetings ago. They said, “You're not going in the right direction.”

Your market solution that you were describing sounded a lot like carbon pricing to me: that you price what you don't want and incent what you do want. It also needs to work with the provinces. I know that Quebec has been a leader in climate-change pricing, as well as in environmental.

What message could we be sending to our partners across the country in provincial or municipal governments?

[Maja Vodanovic]

It's not a tax. I work with PAC. I work with the industry—I mean, I'm a volunteer—and I sometimes go to their meetings just to create the standard. It's very interesting, because they want this standard. They want to be able to say within the industry, “Hey, my package is a good one—it's worth something—and this package is not good.” They want to do that.

A good package should not pay the same fees for recycling as a bad package. They already pay fees.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In effect, you're putting a value on this as a resource versus defining it as waste.

[Maja Vodanovic]

Exactly.

In Lachine, where I live, we changed the zoning because we couldn't have recycling facilities operating in Lachine. It was considered that they work with garbage. Recycling is quite new, and we need to change many laws and regulations in order to make it happen.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Now the pressure on municipalities.... Guelph has been a leader in recycling in Canada. We have had three-stream recycling for a long time. We haven't gotten down to the different streams of plastic, but we get some recovery, as a municipality, by processing recycling for other communities around us.

We just did a study that was putting forward an idea of limiting the transportation of waste across borders.

Maybe I will start with you and go over to Mr. Moucachen on this: that the supply chain for recycled product is a very important part that we need to keep open.

[Maja Vodanovic]

Yes. We need to keep the chain open. That's why we need to make a national standard across Canada—a national system and a national standard for labelling—because small boroughs are just too small to create the quantity we need.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

If we don't, it's going to end up in the landfills in municipalities that are already overburdened with not having enough space in their landfills.

[Maja Vodanovic]

Yes, and it will cost a fortune.