Environment Committee on May 5th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I call this meeting to order.

It is 3:47 p.m., so unless there are objections, I intend to end this meeting at about 5:47 p.m.

This is our last meeting on Mr. Albas's plastics study, which has been very interesting. We have with us some familiar faces—Mr. D'Iorio, Ms. Ryan, Dany Drouin and Jacqueline Gonçalves, all from Environment and Climate Change Canada. We have an hour with the witnesses. Then we go in camera for some committee business.

How many people will be speaking for five minutes?

[Helen Ryan, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment]

Just one, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. That leaves more time for questions.

Who will be speaking?

[Helen Ryan]

It will be me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please go ahead, Ms. Ryan.

[Helen Ryan]

Thank you.

Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you to discuss single-use plastics and our comprehensive approach to managing plastics pollution. I am pleased to be here as part of your study on the government's proposed ban on single-use plastic items and designating plastics under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. We appreciate the committee's interest in this issue.

Today I am accompanied by Marc D'Iorio, assistant deputy minister of the science and technology branch, and Dany Drouin, director general of the plastics and waste management directorate.

We all agree that we need to do better at managing plastics and keeping the value of plastics in the economy and out of our environment. Approximately 86% of Canada's plastic waste is landfilled, representing a lost value of up to $8 billion. Plastic pollutes the water and harms wildlife when it enters the environment.

Canadians expect action. In recent surveys, 86% of Canadians have indicated their support for a ban on harmful single-use plastics. Industry recognizes the need for improvements across the value chain.

The government has developed a comprehensive plan to achieve zero plastic waste by 2030. All environment ministers under the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment have endorsed the goal of keeping plastics in the economy and out of the environment. We are working together to achieve this goal under the Canada-wide strategy and action plan on zero plastic waste.

We need to take action to eliminate plastic pollution and reduce the amount of plastic that ends up in landfills or the environment. This can be achieved through greater prevention, collection, innovation and value recovery, and by transitioning to a more circular economy for plastics. This transition involves new forms of plastics, new technologies that incentivize and support improved recovery of resources from products and packaging, and a shift in how we design and manage plastic products. Moving to a circular economy will reduce greenhouse gas emissions and pressures on the environment while capturing the economic benefits.

Achieving reductions in plastic waste requires a national approach in order to address market issues, create the conditions necessary for investment in recycling and recovery, and support actions at all stages of the plastics life cycle. This means investing in research through Canada's plastics science agenda, innovation through the Canadian Plastics Innovation Challenges, and community action, for instance. Partnerships are critical to developing solutions to increase the recovery of plastics and ensure that producers are responsible for their plastic waste.

In October, Environment and Climate Change Canada and Health Canada published a report entitled “Science Assessment of Plastic Pollution”. The report summarized the state of the science and confirmed that plastic pollution is ubiquitous in the environment and that microplastic pollution poses an ecological hazard, including physical harm to animals and their habitat. The science assessment recommends taking action to reduce plastics, both macro and micro, that end up in the environment.

To support this broad agenda, ECCC will use the authorities under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, CEPA, to regulate certain plastic manufactured items. This will allow the government to enact regulations to change behaviours at key stages in the life cycle of plastic products, such as in design, manufacture, use, disposal and recovery, in order to reduce pollution and create the conditions to achieve a circular plastics economy.

The department also issued a discussion document that laid out an integrated management approach for plastic products to prevent waste and pollution. It includes regulatory and non-regulatory actions, such as restrictions or bans on selected harmful single-use plastic items; performance requirements for recycled content; and actions to improve, expand and make extended producer responsibility policies more consistent across Canada. The items identified as candidates for a proposed ban are prevalent in the environment and are suspected to cause environmental harm, have a low or no recycling rate, and have readily available alternatives.

The transition to a circular economy for plastics represents a significant environmental and economic opportunity. Improving Canada's approach to managing plastics could reduce carbon pollution by 1.8 megatonnes a year, generate billions of dollars in revenue, and create around 42,000 jobs.

I would like to close by thanking all of you for your work to understand the serious issue that plastic pollution presents. I look forward to the committee's recommendations on how to keep plastics in the economy and out of our environment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Ms. Ryan.

When we have just one witness giving a presentation, it certainly makes things easier. We can move right into questions, so we will begin the first round. Each questioner will have six minutes, starting with Mr. Albas.

Mr. Albas, you may go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome all of our guests here today and thank you for the work you do for Canadians.

I would like to start, Mr. Chair, by talking about a little bit of what we've heard from the disability community. I've spoken with some of my constituents; we've heard from the disability community as well as several witnesses here in the study that exemptions should exist in the bans for people who need these items for accessibility reasons. The reference is specifically to plastic straws.

What do you have to say in terms of the government's positions on exemptions for plastic straws for persons with disabilities?

[Helen Ryan]

Our discussion document laid out the proposed approach with respect to limiting or restricting uses for problematic single-use plastics, including straws, and noted the importance of being able to ensure that we can address and meet the requirements from an accessibility perspective.

That's one of the important considerations that's being taken into account in the approach for banning or restricting the use of straws.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

When I questioned witnesses in regard to this, none of them had any clue how this would work. If that's the case, then how does the government imagine people who need these products for accessibility will access them? This ban will shut down all production in Canada and presumably ban imports. How will restaurants get the stock to have on hand for persons with disability or accessibility issues?

[Helen Ryan]

In terms of how the regulatory approach will be designed for advancing the bans and restrictions on single-use plastics items, it's exactly these types of considerations that are taken into account in how the regulations get put forward. Considerations around how you ensure that people with certain disabilities are able to access the material they need are taken into account, and through the feedback that we've heard on our discussion document, we are engaging with those individuals to ensure that a proposed approach will address their needs and take their considerations into account.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Again, I would ask: If there is a problem with supply, because domestically, it sounds like the government has said to industry that they will not produce these straws. Are you planning on implementing some sort of system to allow products from outside of Canada to be brought in? Wouldn't that create some questions about the management of that process? Would people have to apply for an exemption to bring in a substance from outside the country?

[Helen Ryan]

The details on how the bans or restrictions on the single-use plastic items have not yet been put forward, so the government has not indicated that it will put those types of restrictions in place and is in fact considering the feedback and comments that have come in from stakeholders with respect to these very important issues. The design of the regulation will take them into account.

In addition, when the proposed regulations are put forward, there will be a summary of comments that have come in, and there will be an indication of how those comments have been addressed so that stakeholders will have a clear understanding of how the proposed measure takes these issues into account.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

With all due respect, as a parliamentarian, I represent 105,000 people, and many of them have questioned the policy. For you just to say that you know that there's a problem, but we have no answers....

Look, if persons with a disability, some of the most economically vulnerable people in our society, have to absorb the costs of importing plastic straws while others get free ones in restaurants, wouldn't that be a scenario in which we would be punishing people with a disability?

[Helen Ryan]

It's not clear to me, though, why that would be the consideration that you feel is being put forward. As I mentioned, the discussion document laid out the important considerations that they would be taking into account in terms of having a design, a ban or a restriction with respect to single-use plastic items, including straws, so those very considerations about how to ensure that people with disabilities have the appropriate access to what they need to manage their disability is an important consideration. Those issues will be taken into account in the specifics of how the regulation is designed and where the point of application of the regulation is and how those flexibility measures are put into account.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'm more confused. I'm happy to hear you have considerations, but is a ban no longer a ban? These are important questions and ones I hear about from constituents.

If several witnesses have suggested there should be accessibility exemptions, there need to be clear plans in place to make those happen. We need to be removing barriers to accessibility, not piling more on, and you have no answers on this. “The dog ate my homework” excuse I don't think will fly, particularly with the people who have told me that they already feel overburdened and say, “Am I going to have to carry around plastic straws on my person or on my wheelchair?”

It's incredibly disappointing that you don't have a basic answer to whether this is really even a ban.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's more of a comment than a question, because we've run out of time, but there will be opportunities to answer if the witnesses wish to in regard to questions from other members.

We will go to Ms. Saks for six minutes, please.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses today. It's great to see all of you. Thank you for the hard work that you do on behalf of Canadians.

Ms. Ryan, in your opening remarks you spoke about our needing an integrated national approach to reducing plastic pollution with regulatory and non-regulatory actions. I'd ask if you could expand on the work the government is doing toward this and what is happening at the federal level. Basically, how is the government working with the provinces and territories to achieve this national approach?

[Helen Ryan]

The Government of Canada does have a comprehensive approach to managing plastic waste. As I mentioned, the discussion document that was issued in October 2020 laid out that comprehensive approach, including the approach to how we would look to restrict or ban single-use plastic items. It also talked about the work that we're doing with the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment under the zero plastic waste strategy and the action plan, the work that's being done in support of innovation.

We're advancing in the development of standards of work with respect to product design, remanufacturing work, work necessary in terms of how you manage the recycling and what's needed to enhance the capabilities of the recovery system, in addition to work being done to advance standards that are needed for compostability or with respect to recycled content, for instance.

In addition, we have a comprehensive science agenda. We've put out innovation challenges and have been supporting industry in the innovative work that they've been doing to create solutions and find new approaches. I believe you've heard from a number of those companies in the course of your study.

In addition, the department has been advancing work, along with Health Canada, with respect to personal protective equipment and innovative approaches to new alternatives for that as well, as that's creating a new pressure for the system.

I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you so much. I can see that quite a robust and comprehensive consultation process has been undertaken and will be undertaken as we move forward.

On that note, I'd like to ask a follow-up question, if I may.

Can you explain the regulatory process behind listing something on schedule 1 of CEPA? Does it happen out of the blue, or is there evidence and an explanation provided and a comment period for us to get feedback?

[Helen Ryan]

The way the regulatory process works is that in order for us to access our authorities under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, we must first add an item to schedule 1 of CEPA.

We put forward a proposal to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of CEPA in the fall of 2020. There's a mandatory public comment period that's required under the legislation, and we seek public comments and feedback with respect to that.

In addition, under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, there is an opportunity for stakeholders to issue a notice of objection and to call for a board of review. In the case of our proposed listing of plastic manufactured items, we did get a number of notices of objections and calls for a board of review from stakeholders.

The minister has to have due regard for those notices of objections and the call for a board of review. A comprehensive review is undertaken to determine whether there is any new science that would change the findings that were used to support the decision to put forward a proposal to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of CEPA.

In the case of the proposed order, the minister has come to the conclusion that there was no new science or information that would change the conclusion in his outcome in terms of his recommendation to add plastic manufactured items to schedule 1 of CEPA due to the concern I mentioned with respect to the danger they pose to the environment and to wildlife. Therefore, the minister has denied those calls in the notices of objection.

The next stage of the process is to finalize the order. Then the order goes through cabinet. If it's approved, it receives Governor in Council approval and becomes final.

From there, we now have access to our authorities under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act and can put forward targeted measures to respond to specific issues. These can include some of the items I've already mentioned.

A proposal to put forward a regulation requires us to go forward with a draft regulation that, if approved, goes to cabinet and then is posted in the Canada Gazette, again for a mandatory 60-day public comment period. If there are trade issues, this period is longer. We then have regard for those comments and look to see whether further adjustments are needed.

A regulatory impact assessment statement accompanies a proposed regulation. It looks at the costs, benefits and impacts with respect to the regulatory proposal, and puts forward that information as well for public consideration.

We then publish a summary of comments and determine whether the regulation is going forward with changes or without changes. It then goes back to cabinet for consideration. If it's approved, it again is published in Canada Gazette part II as a final regulation, and will take effect on the coming-into-effect date that's put forward in the regulation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We will go on to Madame Pauzé, please.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Ryan, you mentioned the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment in your presentation, but if I look at what the council does, there is nothing about reducing plastic production. It's as though the council doesn't really work on the circular economy.

Phases 1 and 2 of the Canada-wide action plan on zero plastic waste attest to great ambition, but despite all the goals, action seems to be lacking. I'll explain what I mean. According to the timetable for phase 1, the completion date for developing extended producer responsibility guidance is December 2020. I want to point out that the plan pertaining to extended producer responsibility was adopted in 2009. Eleven years is a long time to wait for results, let alone a strategy. You, yourself, said that plastics pollution was a serious problem, that it posed ecological hazards. As I see it, an urgent issue should be dealt with accordingly.

Here are my questions. How many meetings took place with the various levels of government?

How do you move the work on extended producer responsibility forward?

Is there a timetable to move things along and start implementing actions?

[Helen Ryan]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Pauzé.

I don't have the information on the number of meetings that were held, but we can get back to you with that. Many meetings took place, including with the team dedicated to the issue. Meetings also took place at the assistant deputy minister, deputy minister and minister levels to discuss the strategy and the action plan.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I am going to stop you there, because we are talking about an action plan, one we have been waiting 11 years for.

I'd like to bring a recent Greenpeace report to your attention. According to the report, the Canada-wide strategy on zero plastic waste is doomed to fail. The action plan cites a 2019 Deloitte study indicating that up to $8.2 billion would have to be invested to divert 90% of discarded plastic waste from landfill.

Do you make recommendations as to funding and programs to address Canada's plastics problem? Is that part of the work you do?

Clearly, support is desperately needed, but the sector receives a pittance compared with virgin plastics resin producers and the members of the petroleum ecosystem, which supplies the feedstock. They receive a whole lot of money, but little goes towards recycling or zero plastic waste efforts.