Evidence of meeting #32 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to pick up on the topic of enforceability. We heard the minister say that the intention, or his intention, is for Bill C-12 to force future governments to meet the targets, but we know from previous court cases that certain phrases or certain clauses in the legislation can make that nearly impossible. You put in a clause about other considerations or Mr. Albas's favourite word “balance”, and all of a sudden it simply doesn't have the teeth that it needs to stand up to any sort of legal challenge.
Has the department conducted any sort of internal analysis around the enforceability, the legal enforceability of the act?
3:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
As Minister Wilkinson explained, the focus of the legislation is on political and public accountability, so there is a legal obligation on the minister of the day to set targets, to develop a plan, to report on progress towards the target and to account for whether the target has been met. As such, the primary mechanism or means by which the act will be respected over time will be public, political and parliamentary accountability.
3:45 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
If I understand correctly, then, legal accountability is not part of the focus of this legislation.
3:45 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
The minister will have very clear obligations, so I would imagine there will be clear legal obligations on the part of the minister. It's important to appreciate that they are different from the ability to enforce a target per se.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Right. In other jurisdictions such as France, I believe, the government has been taken to task through legal channels and various parties have been successful in the courts and have forced the government to modify its approach. I know there are people who are looking at this legislation and hoping that it would provide a framework to do just that. In fact, we have a Liberal member of Parliament saying in the House that it's his hope as well that it will provide the evidentiary basis for such legal challenges.
I'm just trying to get a sense of whether the department has considered that and whether there's any analysis around whether this legislation as currently written would stand up to such a challenge.
3:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I think we anticipate that there would be an opportunity for judicial review if the minister of the day does not comply with one of the very specific obligations imposed on the minister.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
As I go through the legislative summary, what I'm seeing is setting targets. Well, we've been setting targets for years. We're going to publish an assessment. We've been publishing assessments for years. We've published progress.
From what I can see, this is a piece of process legislation, work that has been done by ECCC already but is now formalized. Would that be accurate?
3:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I think many of the measures in the bill reflect actions that have been taken.
What the bill does is consolidate those actions, including the obligations and steps we take under the UNFCCC. However, it adds a considerable amount of accountability with respect to the obligation to set targets on a rolling five-year basis that are consistent with net zero by 2050, and the way in which the various reports have to reflect progress towards that, and if targets have not been achieved, what changes would be made. Then it also directly links the CESD into the scheme.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
As I said, it's a process, and a process I've certainly seen unfolding for many years. We're hearing the different targets, the commitments that are made, but with the minister being able to change targets, I guess I'm not sure that what we've done here is create anything that's really going to move us on the path to the commitment.
I'm going to shift tracks now.
This current government has committed to the UN declaration in Bill C-15. Can you tell me what consultation process you had with the indigenous community throughout Canada before you tabled this bill?
3:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
We did not engage in extensive formal consultation about the specific provisions in this bill.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Okay.
The legislation that this government is committed to, which is going through Parliament right now—and there's nothing that precluded them from acting in good faith—commits them to any piece of legislation that is significantly going to affect first nations peoples.... Indigenous peoples in Canada need good and due process.
What I'm hearing is that there was no indigenous process. We have a government that's committing to the UN declaration, but even in important bills, it really is very symbolic only, because there has been no proper process with indigenous Canadians.
3:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I would take exception to that characterization.
Since 2016, this government has engaged significantly and regularly with indigenous peoples, including in the development of the pan-Canadian framework, by distinctions-based processes with first nations, Métis and Inuit, via Generation Energy.
There have been extensive discussions, and there continue to be discussions with indigenous peoples around this government's climate planning, target setting and actions, including actions that create potential impacts on the rights and traditional activities of indigenous peoples.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Article 19 under the UN declaration creates very specific obligations for the government, and from what I'm hearing, there was no process. It is not law yet, but I think it is interesting that the government is moving in a process but they are not actually abiding by their own commitments in terms of what that process will be.
Anyway, as some of the other members have articulated here, this is a process piece of legislation. I'm not necessarily convinced that it's going to be the product that creates the outcome that the government has expressed.
Certainly the best cartoon I ever saw was a picture of a high jump bar rising higher. The government was moving it higher and higher without any plan and/or process, but it certainly looks good for the public.
Thank you.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That has been noted.
We go now to our last questioner for this panel.
Is it Mr. Longfield?
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you, and thank you to the officials for being around for more detailed questions.
Mine has maybe a bit more of a reflection on what Mr. Bachrach was suggesting around legal challenges.
I'm wondering about—as we create targets and work on goals—how we work with the other orders of government, including indigenous communities, to ensure that the goals are going to be met, and that we're doing this together with our provincial, territorial and indigenous partners.
Could you describe what that process has been up until now and what it would look like going forward?
3:55 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
I think that's an excellent question and a really important issue.
It's one where we need to distinguish between the specific legal obligations under the bill and the process that the government, and future governments, will follow in order to drive really effective action on climate change.
This bill requires the federal government to set targets. It also requires the minister to consult broadly, including via an advisory committee. The bill also enables the minister's plan to refer to actions of other levels of government, but does not require that. That's because the government cannot compel provinces, territories or indigenous governments to do something on their own, but it can encourage them.
The degree to which any government, current or future, does that will influence the overall effectiveness of the plan. At the moment we have a highly engaged process of engagement with federal, provincial, territorial, municipal and indigenous governments, as well as with a wide range of stakeholders, in developing and rolling out the design of individual measures, and in identifying opportunities for collaboration at a regional, provincial or local level. As well, very formal distinctions-based processes have been in place for a number of years with our indigenous partners.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you. As you're describing that, I'm thinking of the recent Supreme Court ruling to say that this is within federal jurisdiction, but also requires working with the partners. I think they've clarified that this is the path that we would need to follow, and that we are following that path.
We've heard a bit of discussion about the nature of advisory boards: volunteers that are helping the government in different portfolios. I know we have their help with the preparation of a budget. We have them on jobs and export development. We have different types of advisory boards working with ministers.
This legislation would take that to a different level from what you were saying earlier with the order in council process. What are the timing and selection that are done through the order in council process, and when would we see that take effect, assuming the legislation was able to pass by the end of June?
4 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Climate Change Branch, Department of the Environment
Thank you for the question. Mr. Chair, I'll respond to that one.
The Governor in Council process would start to apply to members of the net-zero advisory body when the bill comes into force. The remuneration would be fixed at a level by the Governor in Council. The Governor in Council appointee process is an open and transparent process, and that would start to apply to the advisory body as well.