Environment Committee on May 17th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I will call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 32nd meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, for the first meeting of our clause-by-clause study of Bill C-12.

I think everyone here is experienced with the modus operandi of committees, especially in virtual space, so I won't go over that.

We have with us again today, with great pleasure, Minister Wilkinson. Joining him, from the Department of Finance is Mr. Samuel Millar, director general, corporate finance, natural resources and environment, economic development and corporate finance branch. We also have, from the Department of the Environment, John Moffet, who was with us as well last week, assistant deputy minister, environmental protection branch; and Douglas Nevison, who was with us last week as well, assistant deputy minister, climate change branch.

I will now invite Minister Wilkinson to make his opening remarks.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Thank you for the invitation to discuss with you Bill C-12, the Canadian net-zero emissions accountability act.

I would start by thanking members of this committee for undertaking a timely examination of this bill. I understand it is a constituency week. With the climate crisis before us, we obviously cannot afford to wait.

Over 120 countries have already made a commitment to net zero by 2050, including our biggest trading partner south of the border. Major Canadian companies have also made this commitment.

As I have said, I remain very open to constructive amendments that will further strengthen Bill C-12. I look forward to the committee's work in this regard, and I remain committed to an approach of co-operation and collaboration. That is how the parliamentary process should work and I firmly believe that is what Canadians expect of their elected representatives.

Bill C-12 codifies the government's commitment for Canada to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050, and our newly announced target for 2030. It also creates a detailed accountability and transparency regime to ensure that we methodically plan, report and course correct on our way to net zero.

In December of last year, we published Canada's strengthened climate plan. This plan is one of the most detailed GHG reduction plans in the world.

Recognizing the scientific imperative for early and ambitious action, we announced a new 2030 target of a 40% to 45% reduction in GHG emissions at the Leaders Summit on Climate in April.

Measures announced in budget 2021, along with ongoing work with our American colleagues on issues including transportation and methane, will support that new target. We know more action will be required. This continued ambition is what Canadians expect—that we will continue to prioritize climate action, and that we will work to achieve targets that are aligned with science.

To ensure we meet our targets, Bill C-12 requires that the Minister of Environment and Climate Change prepare two types of reports, both of which are required to be tabled in Parliament and made available to the public: progress reports and assessment reports.

Progress reports will provide updates on Canada's progress towards achieving the target for the next milestone year and any additional measures that could be taken to achieve the target. Each progress report must be prepared at least two years before the relevant milestone year.

Assessments reports, on the other hand, will explain whether the most recent target was achieved. If Canada fails to achieve a target, the minister must explain why and include a description of actions the government will take to address the failed target. Each assessment report must be prepared within 30 days of Canada submitting its GHG inventory report to the UNFCC for the relevant target year.

Bill C-12 also holds the government to account by requiring the Commissioner of Environment and Sustainable Development to regularly examine and report on the government's implementation of the climate change mitigation measures, including those undertaken to achieve each target.

The bill establishes an advisory body of up to 15 members, which will provide advice to the minister and conduct engagement on pathways to achieve net-zero by 2050.

The advisory body must submit an annual report and the minister must publicly respond to their advice.

All of this is in addition to our existing reporting requirements under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. My department has developed a chart outlining the suite of reporting requirements and transparency mechanisms, which will be provided to this committee.

By putting our climate obligations into law, the Canadian net-zero emissions accountability act would ensure that governments are accountable for and transparent about their actions to combat climate change. Bill C-12 would require all future governments to table strong climate plans, based on science, to address the threat of climate change.

Canadians are counting on us to have constructive discussions to strengthen this legislation, but they are also looking for us to enshrine the commitment to net zero and a pathway to get there in law.

I look forward to the robust discussion on Bill C-12 at this committee, but I also hope that this legislation will be moved forward as expeditiously as possible.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Minister.

We have about 90 minutes, which means that we have time for three rounds of questions; one of six minutes and two of five minutes.

As members of the committee already know, we will have another panel at 4 p.m. for an hour and a half.

Mr. Albas, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be passing my time to the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

Go ahead, Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Dan, for this unexpected opportunity.

Minister, thank you for being before committee. Thank you for your personal commitment to climate action. It's evident. You know that you have my deepest respect in knowing that you care. When you say that we “cannot afford to wait”, I firmly believe you mean it, which is why I'm very disappointed with this legislation.

My first question is why. In developing this legislation, it seems apparent that Environment and Climate Change Canada chose not to study the climate accountability acts of other countries—the U.K., New Zealand, Denmark—and to do better than what they recommend. In three places I note the differences with that legislation: We don't start right away with a five-year target, with five years from when the legislation started, the milestone year; we don't include carbon budgets; and we don't rely on an expert committee that reports to the whole of Parliament and actually sets those carbon budgets for the government.

There must have been a decision not to look at the gold standard of climate accountability elsewhere in the world. I wonder why not.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you for the series of questions. Certainly, thank you for your ongoing commitment to the climate issue, which I know is very deeply felt.

We did certainly look at all of the other relevant acts around the world. We came to the conclusion that we were going to develop something that we felt fit best within the Canadian context. As you will know, we have established an expert panel. The expert panel is one piece of this. The role for the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is another piece. In some other jurisdictions, those roles are fused, but in this case the commissioner does the review and effectively the auditing of that function. The expert panel is appointed to provide advice to the government, which is public. It must be responded to by the minister every year, so that piece of it is, we think, the gold standard in terms of how we actually are moving forward.

With respect to other elements of the bill, certainly, as I say, we looked very closely at those. We believe setting five-year rolling targets that essentially embed in them emissions relating to sectors is the right way to go in Canada, a federal system. We believe it is essentially similar in terms of outcomes as to what you get from carbon budgets. Many other countries, including Denmark and Scotland and others, have gone the same direction that Canada has.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

With all due respect, Mr. Minister, the bill refers to an advisory committee, not an expert committee. You have only one climate scientist on the current body. I think it was disrespectful to this committee and the parliamentary process to jump the gun and appoint an advisory committee before the bill had even had a single witness to talk about why so many people and experts believe we should model ourselves much more on the U.K. climate committee, which is universally respected for its expertise. You have one climate scientist on your advisory body. Professor Donner has been clear that Canada's climate target for 2030, if we're going to pull our fair share, should be somewhere between 96% and 99% reductions below the emissions today, but he'll be surrounded by other stakeholders who have other views.

I wonder if you will reconsider the composition—more than the people on it, the structure of it—to be much more like the U.K. expert body that sets carbon budgets.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you for the comment. To be honest, I'm a little bit surprised at the comment, because certainly the focus for us is on getting the expert panel working. The issue is so important and so timely. That's one of the reasons we moved forward with it.

I would say that achieving net zero will require the support and engagement of all parts of society. That includes provinces and territories. It includes indigenous peoples, youth, civil society and a range of sectors within the private sector. We have launched an independent net-zero advisory body that is filled with exceptional Canadians who bridge a wide range of experiences and expertise, including sectoral expertise, and that will enable us to make the kind of progress we need to make going forward.

I can certainly go through the bios of the people who are on that committee. They are an exceptional group of folks, who bring together a range of perspectives from across the piece to ensure that the government is getting the best advice with respect to pathways to achieve net zero.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Minister, with all due respect, we know the only pathway to meet and hold to 1.5°C, which is the goal of the Paris Agreement.... Net zero by 2050 is meaningless if we've blown the carbon budget to get to 1.5°C by 2030.

I've cited to you before in Parliament the very excellent description of carbon budgets from Mark Carney, at page 273 of his book Value(s), so I won't read it out here. We're going to blow any chance of hitting 1.5°C well before 2030 and everyone knows it. Having a process that involves massive consultations for every step and builds in delays could defeat the whole purpose of ensuring that we meet our Paris target of holding to 1.5°C.

Are you open to considering amendments to have the kind of robust expert body that the U.K. has to hold to its climate accountability act, which has worked?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

First of all, I would correct you with respect to consultations that will require enormous obligations that will impede progress.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

That's how the act was written.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

It does require consultation. We believe that Canadians actually want to have a voice in this. We believe that industry and environmental organizations want to have a voice as we go through the process of establishing targets. That's important and that is something we have embedded in this legislation.

We believe that this body, which has been set up with extremely thoughtful folks coming from across the spectrum, will provide the kind of advice that Canada needs to make the progress it needs to move forward.

As you saw, Canada actually significantly ratcheted up its level of ambition recently at the earth summit alongside our partners. We certainly are very sensitive, as will that body be, with respect to the guidance that is in this act relating to needing to be guided by science, which includes ensuring that 1.5°C in 2050 remains something that actually is on the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good.

We have to go now to Mr. Longfield, who will be splitting his time with Mr. Saini, as I understand it.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Yes, that's correct, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Thank you to the minister for being here and to the officials who will be speaking in the last half-hour of this panel.

Over the last several months, I've been hearing from a lot of Guelphites on C-12, many of whom have offered their support for this legislation. They're lending ideas already. They've told me that the bill needs to be prioritized and passed as soon as possible. They're offering meaningful support for us to have these discussions.

Of particular interest to my constituents was the piece in this legislation that offers a greater opportunity for the participation of Canadians on the climate objectives in the climate crisis. Could the minister elaborate on this by letting us know how we're going to be engaging with Canadians on this legislation as we move forward with it?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you for that very important question.

Hearing from Canadians, scientists and experts is extremely important. It's important in a whole range of perspectives in terms of getting to the right answers. It's also important in terms of building consensus in the decisions that are going to be made going forward.

Clause 13 of the bill provides that the Minister of Environment must, when setting or amending a national greenhouse gas emissions target or an emissions reduction plan, provide an opportunity for Canadians, experts, indigenous peoples and other governments to contribute their thoughts and perspectives. For instance, those opportunities could be virtual—for instance in a webinar or through social media—or in person with round tables and assemblies.

In addition, the independent net-zero advisory body is mandated to engage Canadians in a transparent and inclusive process and provide advice to the minister on pathways to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050. We think this is very important.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

You've also mentioned accountability in your testimony.

As vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, I've had the opportunity to do a lot of work with the Auditor General and the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development. I was pleased to see that this legislation will make use of their auditing to hold the government of the day accountable on climate action.

Could the minister explain the importance of this bill's accountability tools?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you again for the question.

Committing ourselves to transparency and accountability is certainly important because it helps people and businesses plan and investors know that they can count on Canada to be a great place to invest. It also sets very clear goals that Canadians expect us to deliver on. They will hold our government—and any future government—to account if we don't. There is a wide range of accountability measures outlined in the act. I think you are all very familiar with those.

The act is also proactive. It requires the federal government to bring forward climate plans to meet targets based on the best available science and the advice of experts.

The commissioner will help to ensure accountability as well, with the act calling upon the commissioner to examine and report on the government's implementation and mitigation measures at least once every target. The net-zero panel will also publicly report and the minister is required to respond.

I've also indicated publicly that I am open to going further with respect to accountability measures. I have noted that I would be pleased to see the bill provide additional progress reports in 2023 and 2025, ensuring two reviews on the implementation of the Government of Canada's commitments to the Office of the Auditor General in advance of 2030, with the first to occur no later than 2024. It would have more prescriptive requirements for what the government must include in progress reports and the emissions reduction plan.

All of these will ensure accountability and transparency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Are you handing it off to Mr. Saini?

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Saini, go ahead.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

It's good to see you again, Minister. Thank you for coming again today with your officials.

I'm going to ask a more personal question based on some of the comments I've been receiving from my constituents in Kitchener Centre. They're extremely happy that we're taking strong measures to fight the climate crisis, including by tabling this important piece of legislation.

Minister, could you help my constituents, who may be listening, by telling us what this bill does?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I will start by saying that Bill C-12 is intended to hold the federal government to its commitment to achieve net zero by 2050—and all governments hence forth—and exceed our 2030 Paris target. The act would require the Government of Canada to set national targets every five years, starting in 2030, for the reduction of GHGs in Canada in order to achieve net zero by 2050. It would hold the government to account through a process to achieve that target, and targets must be based on the best scientific information available and on Canada's international climate commitments. These targets and their associated emissions reduction plans would be developed with advice from the independent net-zero advisory body and through consultations with Canadians.

There are a whole range of documents that will be fully public based on the various reporting mechanisms. More broadly, I think the act demonstrates to Canadians and the global community the Government of Canada's ongoing commitment to taking bold action on climate change.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I want to ask you a question about the advisory body, because that's been brought up already. I'd like you to follow up on the idea that one of the key aspects of this bill is the net-zero advisory panel. Having an independent and expert-based panel is essential for making sure that we're accountable.

For the benefit of my constituents who may be listening in Kitchener Centre, could you please expand a bit on this panel and what it will do exactly?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Sure. Thank you.

The green transition of Canada's economy is required to achieve net zero. It requires advanced planning, investments in technology development and the deployment of those technologies. These measures would mean significant changes to our daily lives in the decades ahead.

The launch of the advisory panel would create an independent and credible platform to gather ideas, research and analysis on the many pathways to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050 across Canada, and to do so in a manner that will ensure the prosperity and economic health of Canada in the future. The advisory panel would comprise eminent Canadians drawn from all regions of the country and from various sectors and perspectives. The advisory body's analysis would support the Government of Canada in making informed choices with respect to reducing emissions and growing our economy. The primary mandate, as you know, is to provide advice on the most promising pathways to achieve net zero by 2050.

We certainly recognize there is a need for this independent body to have the resources to carry out their work. That is why there is a dedicated budget of over $15 million over the next three years and a dedicated secretariat to support their work.

The advisory body, going forward, would establish a transparent and inclusive process to engage with stakeholders.