Environment Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm not sure I could say, on a blanket level like that, that we've received that sort of reaction. However, I do believe that, in response to our recommendations, there have typically been agreement and efforts to respond.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, that's all the questions I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

It's great to see you, Ms. Hogan and Mr. Hayes.

We're in the environment committee. Most of the time we see each other in public accounts. Thank you for all the time you're spending with all of our committees to inform us about your great work. I look forward to talking to you tomorrow about the defence audit that was done.

I read through report 2. It was good to see how you are integrating the sustainable development goals from the United Nations—the sustainable development goal 3 of good health and well-being. Of course, environment and sustainable goals are important, as are economic, but social goals are also extremely important in terms of sustainability.

I wonder if you could comment, Mr. Hayes or Ms. Hogan, on how the federal sustainable development strategy is getting integrated into your work across departments.

[Andrew Hayes]

I'll start with that.

The federal sustainable development strategy provides a number of commitments and targets that we use, from time to time, as criteria for our work.

I mentioned earlier the sustainable development goals. Those are being used broadly across the office, not just in our performance audit practice but also in our special examination work of Crown corporations. We are looking for the places where we can use the sustainable development goals to analyze what's going on in Crown corporations and government departments.

You can expect to see mention of the sustainable development goals on a very regular basis in most of our products.

[Karen Hogan]

If I could just add, Mr. Longfield, we are already incorporating the sustainable development goals into our work, but we can and we should be doing a better job. That is exactly our goal.

Regardless of how we decide to structure or set ourselves up to manage our people, it doesn't mean we're taking away the importance of them. In fact, we're expanding the scope and knowledge of them, thus increasing the importance of sustainable development goals within our work.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Great.

As I read the recommendations, the 12 departments that were audited were in agreement that they are also trying to get up to speed. I don't think it was a gotcha moment. It is more that we are transitioning the way we operate as a government and focusing on sustainability for all the goals that we're working together on. Would that be a fair assessment?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that, in response to the recommendations, the departments did agree. What was probably most important for me was the agreement that comprehensive reporting and integration of all of the targets and measures should happen so that nothing is missed.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In terms of the integration within the Office of the Auditor General, and the skill sets that are transferred between and even within audits, could you talk about how this is evolving over time?

Where do you see the Office of the Auditor General and the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development working together or working separately?

[Andrew Hayes]

I'll start with this and then I'll turn it over to Ms. Hogan.

It's important to recognize that a policy decision was made very early on with the way the act was set up, so that the commissioner is not a stand-alone office. The commissioner supports the Office of the Auditor General, and there has been discussion over the years about whether or not a commissioner should be a stand-alone commissioner.

The way we're structured, the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is a senior officer appointed by the Auditor General to assist her with her mandate. It should be noted that the mandate belongs to the Auditor General. The commissioner assists her.

[Karen Hogan]

When it comes to the kind of expertise we have within the office, we have CPAs, lawyers, economists, environmentalists, engineers, so many. We do have a pocket of rich experience and knowledge about the environment and sustainable development area, and we're trying to make sure that we broaden and expand it. When we feel we don't have that expertise, we hire it to support us in the audits we do.

Right now with our funding pressures, as we said earlier, we did have to make choices to narrow all our discretionary work, which impacted both audits issued under the Auditor General's banner and those under the commissioner of the environment. They both were impacted by some of our pressures.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Longfield. We're right on five minutes unfortunately, but we'll get back to you shortly.

Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a known fact that Employment and Social Development Canada and Environment and Climate Change Canada significantly coordinate, and even harmonize, their efforts. Why is the issue of sustainable development divided between two departments? Would it not have been simpler to have a single department handle it, let's say Environment and Climate Change Canada?

[Andrew Hayes]

I made that point in 2019. In my view, coordination issues come up when two departments are trying to do the same thing. Environment and Climate Change Canada has a group working on the federal sustainable development strategy. A group at Employment and Social Development Canada is working on strategies to address sustainable development objectives. Dividing things like that causes confusion. In my opinion—

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I will stop you there, because I only have two and a half minutes.

I saw that you noticed that lack of coordination. Who can fix this? Because you have the experts, as I understand it.

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that it would be more effective if a central agency was responsible for working on sustainable development objectives. This is because those departments do not have the authority in their mandate to influence or direct other departments.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Because it's your role, you have access to other departments. Isn't that right?

[Andrew Hayes]

Yes, we have access to all departments.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Is the harmonization plan Ms. Hogan mentioned earlier being developed? Where are we in that process?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 15 seconds for your answer.

[Karen Hogan]

Are you talking about harmonization in our office?

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm talking about the harmonization between the two departments working on the environment, Environment and Climate Change Canada and Employment and Social Development Canada.

[Karen Hogan]

I don't know.

Mr. Hayes, could you answer the question?

[Andrew Hayes]

I can only say that both departments are aware of the links between the federal strategies and sustainable development objectives, but I believe there is some confusion.