Environment Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on the question, this time to Mr. Hayes, about the commissioner's group. I know you were hired in July and the former environment commissioner didn't leave until September. My understanding is that, under the previous environment commissioner, the commissioner's group was an actual group.

Can you describe to me the status of that group right now and how it's changed since then?

[Andrew Hayes]

I'll go back to 2015 because that's when I started supporting the commissioner with audits as a principal. There were three leaders of the performance audit practice at that time. Two assistant auditors general and the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development led the performance audit practice together.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Please be very concise just about the commissioner's group.

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm trying to suggest that the commissioner was a partner with two other assistant auditors general in managing the performance audit practice.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm curious about staff. We talked a little bit about structure. The Auditor General talked about expanding the scope and mandate. I'm really curious about the need for specific specialized scientific, technological, economic and policy skills. I've seen recent job postings from the Office of the Auditor General explicitly seeking candidates with expertise including IT and economics.

In contrast, there does not appear to be any explicit job postings seeking the recruitment of environmental experts for several years. Are there plans to hire more environmental experts?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that there are. At this point we are hoping and confident that we will receive additional funding. This is something for which we have received support from Parliament.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you. I just have 30 seconds left.

I just want to note that over the past years, as the environment commissioner mentioned, MPs of all stripes have noted their appreciation for the role of the commissioner. David McGuinty put forward a motion asking the government to make the commissioner a full and independent agent of Parliament.

I have submitted a notice of motion and, at the time, Mr. Scarpaleggia, our chair, actually supported this motion. It's the same one David McGuinty put forward. I'm hoping that I will find support once folks have a chance to read it over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Ms. Collins.

We'll go to Mr. Redekopp for five minutes please.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

I believe Mr. Godin is going to go first and then I'll take the last round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm sorry. It got reversed from the order I was given originally.

Mr. Godin, please.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to congratulate you and I invite you to learn my name by heart.

Madam Auditor General and Mr. Interim Commissioner, thank you for your assistance.

Ms. Hogan, you mentioned in your opening remarks that departmental sustainable development strategies will be assessed for implementation and progress. You stated that 70 federal organizations are currently under the microscope. In 43 days, including weekends and holidays, you will have 30 more. Can you explain what will happen in those 43 days to add another 30 agencies?

[Karen Hogan]

I just want to make sure I understand your question. You are asking what we are going to do to enable us to audit a greater number of agencies. Is that right?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You stated that, to date, 70 federal agencies are under the microscope. In December 2020, that number will be close to 100 agencies. My question is, what is going to happen in the next 43 days to enable you to reach your goal of 100 agencies?

[Karen Hogan]

When mandates are laid out in the law, we organize ourselves to be able to fulfill our commitments. This is what you are seeing when our organization reduces the number of performance audits. All our office's financial work is required by law. We make sure we fulfill our mandate, which is non-discretionary. So we are going to organize ourselves the same way we have in the past.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

For my personal information and that of committee members, how many federal agencies are there in total? Because 100 may be a lot, or it may not be. If there are 5,000, looking at 100 is not very effective.

[Karen Hogan]

There are about 100 departments and agencies, 101, I believe. They would all be subject to assessments.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I understand, thank you.

My second question is this: you stated in this fall's Report 2 that it is “difficult for parliamentarians and Canadians to gain a clear sense of overall progress against the goal.” I agree with your comment and I have reached the same conclusion. The agencies have failed to mention key aspects of what they intended to accomplish as a performance target.

The current government has been in place for five years and we have no way to assess what it has done, or to know where it is going. It's like they have good intentions, but they don't have any measures or a specific plan to achieve their goals.

What advice would you give us so that, as parliamentarians, we can request performance assessment tools?

[Karen Hogan]

Do you mean tools in general, or tools related to sustainable development in particular?

Mr. Hayes might want to answer that question.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I am talking about sustainable development. That's what I see in Report 2: Departmental Progress in Implementing Sustainable Development Strategies.

Yes, Mr. Hayes should answer, actually.

[Andrew Hayes]

The action plans I mentioned are good tools for the committee. The former Auditor General often made that comment, and we will likely make it in the future as well. The quality of departmental information is important, because it helps us provide good reports and advice to Parliament, and it also enables you to follow up with departments.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Hayes, you stated that there will be no climate change report before 2022. I feel that, if we believe climate change is important and we are making it a priority, we should be doing studies to see if we are headed for disaster, or if we are introducing measures that have positive impacts and that are intended to reduce our environmental footprint and our greenhouse gases?

The government has been in power for five years and will have governed for eight years by 2022. Let's hope for its sake that we will not have an election before then, or that it will win the next election—although that's not what I want. By that time, the government will have been in power for eight years. You're talking about waiting until 2022 to assess what is being done about climate change.

Wouldn't it be better to implement performance measures to find out what is happening right now and monitor things so we can react?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, your time is up, Mr. Godin. We can come back to your question later.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have asked my question. Could I get a short answer from the commissioner?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, no, because you took five and a half minutes. Your turn will come up again in a few minutes, and Mr. Hayes can respond.

Mr. Saini, you have the floor.