Environment Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

The next question I have is with regard to international co-operation.

In the presentation we received, it's noted that the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development works with auditors in numerous other countries around the world to assess preparedness and implementation for the 2030 SDG agenda. Achieving the SDGs is an incredibly important component for ensuring a fair and more sustainable world. That's something I agree wholeheartedly with and something that's been shared with me by many of my constituents in Vaudreuil—Soulanges.

Could the commissioner please provide more details about the role of implementing the SDGs and the recent international work with regard to preparedness?

[Andrew Hayes]

Thank you very much.

I will ask Ms. Leach to expand on this, because Ms. Leach and our former commissioner, Julie Gelfand, had been leading work together to support the development of auditing on the topic of the SDGs. Honestly, I would say Canada is a leader in that respect because of the work that Ms. Leach and Ms. Gelfand have done on that.

Ms. Leach, would you like to add to that?

[Kimberley Leach]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Hayes and Mr. Chair.

In 2016, our International Organization of Supreme Audit Institutions—that's the organization to which all auditors general in the world belong—developed a strategic plan that said all supreme audit institutions should help the UN monitor and assess and measure the progress towards sustainable development goals.

In fact, we've been doing this since 2016. We've done two government-wide audits. We're presently in the middle of a government-wide audit that's looking at the implementation of the SDGs, which will be tabled in the spring.

In 2018, we tabled an audit that looked at the preparedness of our government to implement the sustainable development goals. We looked at seven things. The results of that audit were not good. We have been to this committee to speak to that audit in the past. We are currently doing a government-wide audit on this that will look at the extent to which our recommendations from 2018 have been implemented and how government is doing on implementation.

The other thing that we do is that all audits in our office, all performance audits, whether they're related to health or defence—it's not just environmental audits but all audits—need to take the sustainable development goals into account in the work that they do. We're quite proud of that.

[Andrew Hayes]

Maybe I'll just add that the work that Ms. Leach and Ms. Gelfand have done has allowed other international auditors general to be prepared to audit the SDGs, and also we've provided them with advice and criteria that they can use.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay.

Similarly, some previous reports from the Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development have focused primarily on two environmental issues. However, sustainable development encompasses much more than just the environment. It also includes social, economic and traditional considerations. I'd like to know what is being done to include those factors in the assessment reports of the commissioner and the Auditor General.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Andrew Hayes]

We always work with audit teams within the office to ensure that sustainable development objectives are considered a priority when planning and selecting our audits for the commissioner and the Auditor General.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

I now give the floor to Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for being here.

This is very interesting.

I know that you often have to deal with requests, delays and perhaps a lack of power. As we look at the Auditor General's report on progress made by departments and agencies in implementing sustainable development strategies, we see, on page 7 of the French version, that two of the 10 contributing actions related to air quality were not addressed.

According to Health Canada reports, air pollution causes several thousand deaths each year.

Can you tell us whether more attention should be paid to the connection between health and the environment and whether you should insist that this be done?

[Andrew Hayes]

In our report, we found that targets and measures were not included in departmental reports. Twelve departments were included in our audit and we found shortcomings with respect to the measures.

It's important that all priorities be included in the reports so that Canadians and parliamentarians can get a true picture of our government's progress and actions.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes. We agree that much work remains to be done.

On page 12 of the document you sent us, you state that criteria that are helpful in leading to successful audits include the engagement with stakeholders. So you select reports based on that. In 2019, Environment Canada's report failed to provide a complete list of non-tax fossil fuel subsidies required for auditing. Only grants for 23 out of 200 organizations could be identified.

Is it time for the commissioner to have broader powers to carry out audits?

[Andrew Hayes]

That is a political matter. In my opinion, it is our role to conduct audits and make recommendations. In doing that work, we provide information to Parliament. It is a role that this committee and others could play to influence progress.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Everyone must do their part, as they say. However, in the case of Transport Canada, which was mentioned earlier in connection with fossil fuel subsidies, no one seems willing to do their part. I find that unfortunate.

[Andrew Hayes]

That happens in a few instances. For example, it happens in some cases related to biodiversity. In my view, it's important for departments and agencies to engage with a high degree of confidence on the issues that fall within their mandates.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You say that members of Parliament can do something, but we really need those tools and those numbers.

For example, when Ms. Gelfand tabled her last report, she said the government needed to tighten up the definition of the word “ineffective” when talking about fossil fuel subsidies because it was unclear. Fossil fuel subsidies were not being reduced or stabilized, they were increasing.

Out of respect for the institutions you represent, could we not consider enhanced monitoring measures? Isn't it time to demand answers?

[Andrew Hayes]

I will give you an example.

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts uses reports and requests action plans from departments. It's a good practice because it forces them to set timelines. It also provides an opportunity for the committee to follow up.

Our office does monitoring reports from time to time, but it has not been a high priority over the past decade because of the other issues we had to look at.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

What I'm reading gives me the impression that departments do not work together. My other question will be about that.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have about 10 seconds left. Perhaps Mr. Hayes can answer in the second round of questions.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That is exactly what we will do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

If we look at the past four years, from 2016 through 2019, we see that the environment commissioner's office was averaging almost five environmental audits—4.75—each year. Now, in 2020, we have one environmental audit report. We have only two planned for 2021. I'm not including in these numbers the required departmental reports on the SDGs or the annual reports on petitions. I'm not including the natural health products, which doesn't seem to be an environmental audit. I'm just talking about actual environmental auditing work.

It seems like we're doing way less than we used to do, and it seems particularly alarming, given the climate crisis we're facing, the biodiversity crisis and the threats to fresh water, to the environment and to human health.

I'm curious about your plans for strengthening the office of the commissioner of the environment to allow this office to do the important environmental audit work that Parliament and Canadians have come to rely on.

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that your question raises two important points. The first relates to the audit work that we have done historically. I would say that for the large majority of the mandate of the commissioner since 1995, the environmental audits have been the focal point. I think that over the last number of years we have done more sustainable development audits than we have in the prior years.

The mandate that we do have relates to both the environment and sustainable development, so we have tried to find that balance.

The other angle that your question raises is one that relates directly to our financing, our funding, as the Office of the Auditor General. As Ms. Hogan mentioned in her opening remarks, the work that is done for the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is part of our performance audit practice. It's the same practice in our office that supports the work of the Auditor General. Because of our funding and resourcing challenges, we have had to reduce our performance audit practices work over the years.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Hayes, I'm going to interrupt you. It sounds like you are under-resourced and need more funding to do the important environmental auditing work that Canadians rely on.

I have another question for you, Ms. Hogan. The interim commissioner was appointed in July 2019, well over a year ago. It's good to hear that you'll finally be starting the selection process by November 30. I'm curious to know who you're consulting on this. Specifically, have you met with leaders from any of Canada's environmental organizations?

[Karen Hogan]

You are correct. We launched a countrywide search for the new commissioner of the environment and sustainable development at the end of October. What we have done so far to find—