Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Chief Ghislain Picard, Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador]

Good afternoon, everyone.

[Witness spoke in Innu.]

[Translation]

Let me begin by acknowledging that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Nation. I'd like to thank the Anishinabe Nation, because we're meeting today for an important discussion that has implications for them and others.

Mr. Chair, honourable members of this committee, let me introduce myself. My name is Ghislain Picard of the Innu Nation and the community of Pessamit. I am the Chief of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador.

Our organization is made up of the 43 first nations communities of Quebec and Labrador. Its mission is to ensure that their rights on a wide range of important issues are upheld.

I'd like to start by thanking you for inviting me to testify today about the age-old cultural and spiritual relationship that first nations have with the caribou, which we call atik^u in the Innu language. I will also speak to our support for Minister Guilbeault's move to issue an emergency order under the Species at Risk Act.

Caribou are at the heart of first nations identity, culture and way of life. We are not only stakeholders in the management of the territory and its resources, we are also rights holders, and we demand to be consulted in decision-making processes related to our territories.

As I said, first nations are rights holders. They have both treaty rights and aboriginal rights. As you know, these rights were formalized in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which was endorsed by the Government of Canada through the adoption of Bill C-15, An Act respecting the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Quebec has so far refused to adopt provincial legislation that would endorse the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and oblige Quebec to adapt its legislative framework to the declaration's fundamental principles.

We are sensitive to the socio-economic issues connected to caribou protection, particularly with regard to forestry jobs and the survival of the municipalities that depend on them. Despite these concerns, we and many others agree that taking action for the caribou, an umbrella species essential to biodiversity and the health of our ecosystems, is urgent. That's why we affirm our support for Minister Guilbeault's actions, which stem directly from his legal obligation to recommend an emergency decree when he believes the species is facing imminent threats to its survival or recovery.

In our humble opinion, there's no justification for placing the blame on Minister Guilbeault and playing the interference card by asserting that the preservation of the species falls under Quebec's jurisdiction. Indeed, we're in this precarious situation today because of the Quebec government's failure to act on this matter.

Since 2019, the Quebec government has been postponing, for no good reason, the publication of a comprehensive strategy that would contribute to the survival of all caribou herds in Quebec. Last June, the Quebec Superior Court even ruled that the Quebec government had failed in its constitutional obligation to the Essipit Innu and Pekuakamiulnuatsh First Nations by failing to consult them before developing this strategy. The same judgment also calls out Quebec's inaction and stresses the urgent need to act, calling the status of the caribou in Quebec and its habitat on Nitassinan deplorable.

Quebec's first nations care deeply about the caribou's survival. They have been working for many years to preserve it via political action, participation in various policy committees and consensus-building groups, and community-led initiatives in the field.

The Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador even went so far as to submit a brief outlining our concerns and recommendations to the independent commission set up by Quebec in 2022.

Even so, the Quebec government is bent on excluding first nations from any caribou-related decisions. In light of its refusal to co-operate, first nations have asked the federal government to intervene, which it is legally obligated to do. Minister Guilbeault was the only one to take our concerns and proposed solutions seriously, and that's why we support his recommendation to the Governor in Council to issue an emergency order to protect the caribou.

In conclusion, we believe that significant measures must be taken to ensure the caribou's survival, and we urge you all to endorse measures related to the emergency order, a process that stems from the Minister of Environment and Climate Change's legal obligation to act. Measures and discussions relating to the fate of the caribou must transcend political partisanship. In fact, the same principle should apply when it comes to indigenous issues in general.

It's also important to set the record straight about the disinformation campaign going on in Quebec. Our actions must be based on reliable data for which there is scientific consensus. We must act quickly not only for the caribou, but to ensure that our children, future generations, can also understand the importance of this iconic species and benefit from the priceless ecosystem services provided by forests and their biodiversity.

I would of course like to acknowledge the presence of Mr. Alain Bédard, general director of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Sustainable Development Institute, who is attending the meeting with me today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Chief Ghislain Picard.

I believe Mr. Bédard's technical difficulties have not been resolved.

Mr. Bédard, please feel free to send any comments in writing about the discussion we are about to have. Committee members are free to ask you questions, but, unfortunately, if the system isn't working, you can only answer yes or no, or indicate agreement or disagreement. Once again, feel free to send us your comments in writing about what participants say in the next few minutes.

We'll now go to questions.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Chief Ghislain Picard, it's very nice to see you again here in Ottawa. We're practically neighbours, since your association's head offices are in Wendake. I was very fortunate to be born near Wendake 60 years ago and to have spent the last 60 years of my life there. I have a very close relationship with the Wendat and the first nations, and I'm very proud of that. Mr. Picard, welcome to the Parliament of Canada.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to tell you a bit about Wendake, since I have represented its people with honour and dignity for the past 16 years. Wendake is an inspiration to all first nations. It stands on its own two feet, it's proud of its heritage and it's very self-sufficient economically.

More than 400 non-indigenous people work in Wendake. A number of successful businesses that sell their products across Canada are based in Wendake, and many of them work with wood. Some examples are Christian Picard's canoes, the handcrafted snowshoes of Raquettes and Artisanat Gros-Louis—I have a pair myself—Raquettes GV and Prémontex, a business founded by the Siouï family almost 40 years ago. Prémontex has about 50 employees who specialize in building stairs, among other things, and they work with wood.

My point is, it's possible to ensure economic vitality while ensuring the vitality of all earthly creatures.

Mr. Picard, you started off by saying that caribou are very important to first nations. Can you tell us more about that?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Earlier, I emphasized the importance of the caribou. I just want to point out that our world is very inclusive. There are humans, of course, but there's also everything around them, all the plants and animals. I think it's important to remember that. We like to emphasize that at every opportunity.

That said, the caribou is of special importance to us. That's true for the Innu, and it's also true for the Cree nations. I'm sure people in Yukon would say so as well. At the same time, we're well aware—as the leaders of these nations remind us—that things are precarious. Caribou herds are in a precarious position. By their actions, our nations have shown that they are also proactive. We understand the fragile balance between economic survival, in general, and vulnerable ecosystems.

Two years ago, in January and February, the Cree and Innu nations joined forces. They agreed to come together over their concerns and enter into an agreement. The agreement allows harvesting, because caribou is also extremely important in terms of subsistence hunting, and it also provides for conservation of the species. I believe this demonstrates that our nations are just as capable of making their own decisions about policies aimed at protecting the species, regardless of the role played by the other two levels of government.

That means it's extremely important to consider the close bond between the caribou and our nations. Nevertheless, there are somewhat more contemporary issues that challenge us as well. For example, one Innu nation community recently decided to refrain from hunting for a period of five years, I believe, so the caribou herds can achieve a much less concerning state than what we see today.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Picard, I'm going to ask a question, and you can answer it later if you don't have time to provide an answer, but I'd like you to think about it.

Earlier, people from Boisaco and the municipality of Sacré-Cœur told us about what happened in British Columbia and Alberta. They managed to increase the size of the caribou herd in just two years by allowing more wolf hunting.

Is that something worth considering?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Briefly, your question highlights the fact that, if there is no space to talk about the problem, solutions and potential solutions fizzle out.

I purposely mentioned the Superior Court decision in the case of two of our communities where Quebec did not fully carry out its duty to consult our communities and their leaders. That is essentially what I want to point out here. If proper space for discussion isn't available, discussions will be meaningless.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for sharing their views with us as part of their testimony today.

I recognize that caribou issues are happening pretty far from my riding of Milton. However, Milton is on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, the Huron-Wendat and the Mississaugas of the Credit. We are also very close to the Six Nations Confederacy. Nevertheless, as parliamentary secretary, I have a responsibility to support the government's work in this area.

In earlier testimony, we heard that caribou populations are not declining, but are in fact growing.

Chief Ghislain Picard, based on your experience and observations, do you believe that the boreal caribou populations are in good health and that their numbers are increasing?

Do science and research support the claim that caribou herds are healthy and that the situation is improving?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

One thing the Government of Quebec did that we supported was set up an advisory committee whose mandate was to look into this matter.

In general, we agreed with the findings of that committee, which were presented in a report published in the late summer of 2022. It's a scientific landmark, and, in light of the information we've been receiving over the past year, there are undoubtedly assertions that deserve the support of the scientific community. It's unfortunate that my colleague, Mr. Bédard, can't participate fully in the discussion, because the science part of this is more in the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Sustainable Development Institute's wheelhouse.

That said, at the risk of repeating myself, I'll reiterate some of what I said to Mr. Deltell earlier. If we can't create a space to talk about it, the discussions end up happening in isolation and don't allow for longer-term collaboration in seeking solutions.

We believe that all the parties concerned by the fragility of the species could have been brought to the same table to have these discussions, while also soliciting input from the scientific community, of course.

I think your question points to a possibility, and that possibility still exists.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you for your answer, Chief Ghislain Picard.

Mr. Bédard, can you give us a thumbs-up or a thumbs-down to indicate where caribou populations have been going over the past 10 years?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Bédard, we'll give it a try and see if the sound quality is good enough for the interpreters. Otherwise, I may have to cut you off.

[Alain Bédard, General Director, First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Sustainable Development Institute]

Okay.

I can go over the history of the caribou issue. The species was listed under the Species at Risk Act, under the Act Respecting Threatened or Vulnerable Species—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Excuse me, but there is no interpretation because the sound quality isn't good enough. Unfortunately, you'll have to send us your comments in writing, Mr. Bédard. Your comments will inform our report.

I'm sorry, but we have to consider our interpreters.

Mr. van Koeverden, you have the floor for 30 seconds.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

My last question is for Chief Ghislain Picard.

Chief Picard, is it fair and reasonable for the provincial government to take more than eight years to come up with a plan to support, protect and ensure the preservation of caribou species?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please be brief, Chief Picard. Do you think eight years is enough time to come up with a plan?

Is that your question, Mr. van Koeverden?

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Yes, thank you.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think eight years is way too long. The situation is certainly precarious, and urgent action is needed. I said that twice during my presentation a little earlier.

Members of our organization have said this a number of times outside the work of the committee. We even said it to the advisory committee I referred to a little earlier. In that sense, our recommendations are very specific.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Simard, you have the floor.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you for being with us, Chief Picard.

You said earlier that there was no justification for playing the interference card. I understand what you're saying. We may not see eye to eye on this, but I've always had a great deal of admiration for the first nations that defend their territorial occupation tooth and nail, and all that entails, much like the Government of Quebec does.

I want to ask you this question anyway. You won a favourable judgment from the Superior Court of Quebec, and now the government has an obligation to consult with you.

Based on discussions you may have with the Government of Quebec during consultations, could your support for the order potentially change?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Chief Gilbert Dominique, whom you will be hearing from a little later today, will no doubt be able to provide you with a more fulsome answer than mine on this subject. It's really the Essipit Innu and Pekuakamiulnuatsh first nations that are the subject of this Quebec Superior Court decision.

All we want to do is work together, especially on this file. It's way more than just the communities of Essipit and Mashteuiatsh. The communities are asking us to intervene.

I'd like to point out that the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador is responsible for promoting unifying principles among the various nations and for advancing certain issues that are more urgent than others. One of those issues is the caribou, so we're moving forward with a position that allows us to reflect the diversity represented by 10 nations dispersed over 40-plus communities.

In light of the Superior Court's decision, we have indicated our interest in meeting with a number of Quebec government ministers that are involved by virtue of the principle of consultation. We're waiting to hear back from the Government of Quebec. In that regard, we've always said that it's important for the consultation process to take place sooner rather than later. In this case, the ball is really in the Government of Quebec's court.

If we have a framework and a space for discussion that's not likely to make what we want secondary to conditions put forward solely by the Government of Quebec, we can certainly bring political will to the table.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you for that.

I liked what you had to say about unifying principles. However, media coverage of caribou protection and the discussions I have had with some people about it lead me to believe that there is no consensus, or that it is difficult to reach one, on this issue. I have to be honest with you about that.

We've been working on this issue for three or four years now, and we've met with people. It's really tough to reach a consensus or a position that works for the majority of stakeholders, from people in the forest industry to those in favour of protecting biodiversity. Personally, I think the two can go hand in hand.

There's one thing I'd like to know, though. Is there a majority view among all the different indigenous communities that you could share with us?

I'm not trying to polarize the issue. I'm aware of what some Boisaco employees have told the media, and they have a different take on the situation.

What's the consensus view among first nations?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I'll try to answer your question with a brief aside. I'm also aware that public meetings were held in around Sacré-Cœur and Forestville, near where I live. To be honest, I think some of the things people said were worrisome and counterproductive considering the goal.

Having said that, I think it's very important to emphasize that the right conditions need to be in place for a proactive and constructive discussion about the current situation. At the risk of repeating myself, I would add that, as long as the Government of Quebec is willing to listen to us, I think the will on our side is there.

That is more or less the comparison I would make, without necessarily talking about what the Government of Quebec has done or not done. Minister Guilbeault, who represents the federal government, reached out to first nations from the very beginning and said he intended to listen to them. I think that what's clear here is that the Government of Quebec is taking actions that could lead us in the wrong direction.

If we had proper space to engage in a meaningful discussion, I'm sure first nations would embrace such an opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for being with us.

Chief Picard, it's always a pleasure to listen to you. I'm very honoured to ask you a few questions today.

Mr. Bédard, I wish I could have heard what you have to say. I may ask you some questions that you can answer in writing afterwards.

Chief Picard, you mentioned something at the outset that I would like to pick up on. You talked about the role that caribou play in the culture of some indigenous communities or nations in terms of lifestyle and identity.

A balanced ecosystem is one thing, but what does the caribou symbolize for the nations you represent? I'd like to hear a little bit more about that.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

In my conclusion, I talked about the caribou's iconic role in our cultures. I was actually there when the Innu and Cree nations met for the first time, in February 2023, at Matimekush, near the old town of Schefferville. The discussion focused on the caribou, which people were most concerned about. I think that's why it was so easy for these two nations to join forces and adopt measures that would allow for harvesting based on conservation principles as well as subsistence hunting by our community members.

That said, the caribou, like the bear, plays an important role. In fact, I'd say that many societies around the world have a spiritual connection to the bear, one that has manifested in many ways. For the Innu, Cree, Atikamekw and Anishinabe communities, the caribou has always been a powerful presence in both stories and subsistence hunting.

The environment is a challenge we all face, ourselves included. We are fully prepared to co-operate to address the prospect of a radical decline that will make the caribou population even more vulnerable.