Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much.

It's important to hear what you have to say and your point of view on the knowledge and ancestral rights of the indigenous communities you represent. It shows that reconciliation needs to be more than just a platitude or cliché. We can't place all the responsibility for protecting biodiversity on Brazil, Costa Rica or Kenya, either. We also have a role to play when there are real, proven threats.

With regard to the consultation process and the Quebec government's role in that, it said in 2016 that a strategy to protect the caribou was necessary. On June 21, eight years later, the Quebec Superior Court noted that the Government of Quebec didn't carry out proper consultation with the indigenous communities concerned, which I find very disturbing. Let's keep that in mind.

What do you think the federal government's role and responsibility should be in this context, particularly with regard to the Species at Risk Act?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I just want to say that the caribou issue has been a primary concern for us for a long time, including during those years. Secondly, I would note that a former Quebec premier said at the time that he wasn't prepared to sacrifice jobs for a few caribou. That's alarming, as you say, and I agree with you.

That said, it's our duty to create a space for discussion that's specifically designed for what we mean by “consultation”. That's what I was alluding to earlier. I say this because, obviously, each level of government, including the federal government, has its own definition. For me, the fact that the federal environment minister, Mr. Guilbeault, consulted First Nations was extremely well received.

I believe we've had at least three meetings that have enabled our communities to better understand the purpose of the order and to express their concerns more clearly.

In contrast, the Quebec government didn't consult us as much. Moreover, the latter has put off announcing a strategy for reasons that we feel are not valid.

If they were as determined as they claim to take positive action despite the obstacles, they could have set up a process to create a space for all stakeholders, including the forest industry, to talk about the caribou issue. Instead, we're all being targeted by a disinformation campaign, which obviously doesn't help anyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll move on to the second round of questions.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Picard, what do you think of what happened about 15 years ago in British Columbia and Alberta? People were allowed to hunt wolves, which prey on caribou, and that led to a 52% increase in the size of the caribou herd in two years.

Do you think that's a solution worth considering?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

It may be a solution, and it's something stakeholders are talking about. I mentioned an Innu community that adopted a local policy to give caribou herds a chance to grow. I'm sure that Innu community will share its decision with other communities.

All we're doing on our end is what I would call on-the-ground monitoring. We're trying to identify the solutions that we think can succeed.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Given that the western caribou herds grew because people were allowed to hunt wolves, which are predators, I imagine that could serve as inspiration to many people here.

Isn't that right?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I'm from Pessamit, which is near the Pipmuacan reservoir, where there was a local initiative to make it a protected area. People I know who live there told me there were lots of concerns about the local wolf population, so that's clearly something we need to talk about.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Okay, so there's already a conversation happening about that.

Mr. Picard, do you know if there are first nations members working in the wood industry who would be directly affected by this order?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I know some of the people would be affected. I think it's up to community leaders to have those conversations, and I know those conversations are happening.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What would you say to first nations members whose jobs are threatened by the Liberal order?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

You'd have to ask the leaders of those communities. I think we have—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Picard, you're the chief of the Assembly of First Nations Quebec-Labrador. What do you have to say to members of those first nations?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I'm not a chief of chiefs, sir.

As I said, my job is to put forward principles around which we have achieved consensus. There is consensus around the delicate balance between economic issues and conservation issues. That's what I'm here to talk about.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

You're the chief of the Quebec first nations. Earlier, this committee heard testimony from the mayor of Sacré‑Cœur, Lise Boulianne. She said that if, God forbid, this Liberal order ever comes into force, her town will become a ghost town.

What would you say to her?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

People used to say the same thing about certain communities in connection with Kruger, which is no longer in the picture, but those communities are still thriving now.

That's the point I wanted to make when I said that we're all on the receiving end of disinformation campaigns, and that makes it hard to make a decision that's in everyone's best interest.

That's also the challenge we all face now.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Earlier, the Boisaco people said that jobs could be lost and that job losses resulting from such an order would undermine human dignity.

Do you agree with those comments?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Our human dignity has been undermined for several decades because we cannot participate in decision-making, as is the case here.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

In this case, first nations people are at risk of losing their jobs, a mayor says her community is going to become a ghost town, and people say that losing a job undermines human dignity.

That is the reality of it, Mr. Picard.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

The reality is also that people are making claims today that are not supported by science.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What claims are people making today?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I want to talk about job loss. Someone said 2,000 jobs. Is that really true?

The Government of Quebec is not part of the discussion, even though this situation is of paramount importance to many communities, including ours. That's what we're trying to make people understand.

Wouldn't it benefit the Government of Quebec to play its role to the fullest degree? That's what we're saying today.

We're certainly not opposed to engaging in a meaningful discussion on this issue if given the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mrs. Chatel, you have the floor.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Picard, this is a fascinating discussion. Thank you very much for your testimony.

Mr. Chair, we're not just talking about caribou today. We're also talking about biodiversity and species at risk. One of my constituents asked me why it's so important to talk about caribou and diversity. It's important because biodiversity supports us, just as it supports our economy. By preserving and protecting caribou, we protect our health, our economy, and our well-being now and in the future. If we don't protect it, the entire environment will deteriorate. We're part of that environment, though, and so is our economy. That's why we're talking about caribou.

Mr. Picard, thank you also for talking about disinformation. Some people are fearmongering while we are looking for a solution to protect our environment, the environment on which our economy depends, and to give us and our children human dignity.

With respect to the disinformation you mentioned earlier, a forestry company representative told us earlier that it's not true the boreal caribou are in danger.

You talked about an independent commission that looked at the issue and actually published a report. There's also the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada, an independent committee made up of experts in biology and wildlife from academia, the public service, non-governmental organizations and the private sector.

Scientific voices have already been raised. We've been hearing them for years, not just this year. People have been talking about this species at risk since 2004. The reason the alarm is blaring now is that we haven't been listening to them since 2004.

In 2022, an independent commission asked the Government of Quebec to present a plan, a strategy to protect the caribou. The federal government has been asking for this for years.

What was the outcome of that?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

The answer is quite simple. In my opinion, the ball is really in the Government of Quebec's court. At least two of the recommendations had to do with first nations. The first reads as follows:

The commission recommends that the government's strategy take into account the particular value that first nations attach to caribou, the traditional knowledge they hold, and the aboriginal rights that may be affected.

The second reads as follows:

In addition, the Commission recommends that the government initiate a formal discussion with these communities as soon as possible, in a nation-to-nation process, with a view to fulfilling its constitutional obligation to consult and accommodate.

These recommendations were made in 2022.

I would also draw your attention to the Superior Court of Quebec's decision last June, which concluded that the Government of Quebec had not followed up on these recommendations.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I have a point of clarification. If I understand correctly, you had to go to court to be consulted.

Is that correct?