Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. This truly is quite important.

We are all gathered here before a radical, job-destroying decree. This is being presented to us by an incompetent, ideological Liberal government that is forcing us to submit to this. I say incompetent because it will destroy policies that were put in place under the former Conservative government. The period between 2006 and 2015 were dark days in the forestry sector. That former government appointed two strong men to the position of Minister responsible for the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec: Jean-Pierre Blackburn and Denis Lebel. In this capacity, their priority was to implement initiatives in all Quebec forestry regions to strengthen primary processing, develop secondary and tertiary processing, and push technology forward. These two men achieved a great deal for the forest industry, but now this decree will destroy all the work done by the former Conservative government, of which I was a member. I was there, I worked with these men and I'm very proud of them.

You spoke earlier about caribou herds that are relatively small or concentrated, consisting of 9 individuals in one place or 200 individuals elsewhere, for example. I'm a farmer, and we used to say that if you wanted to ensure the future of a herd, you had to introduce a young bull and bring in new blood, because inbreeding in herds causes disease. A forestry engineer I know, who works in your region, told me that the caribou were sick, that they were weak and that the mortality rate among young individuals was staggering due to a lack of genetic diversity.

Would it be simpler to set up a program to look for caribou in other regions, i.e., caribou that don't come from the same genetic line? That would strengthen the next fawns and perhaps solve part of the problem as to the future of the herds.

We're shutting down an industry, laying people off, putting people in trouble, all without solving the root of the problem. Could the problem be that these caribou lack not food, but rather genetic diversity?

Would it be possible to set up such a program? The question is for anyone who wants to answer it.

[Jean-François Samray]

I think that nature dictates a limit to the number of times individuals can be cousins. That's a fact.

Now, two of these three herds are in enclosures. As far as these two herds are concerned, I think, as we've heard from all the witnesses, that there is a way of taking the time to sit down, all together, to come up with a solution. In the case of the third herd, I think, given the population, that there's still time to do the same. It must be said that if you lose one or the other of the elements in question, you can't win. You need both. It's important for the industry and, from what I've heard so far, it's important for everyone.

[Frédéric Verreault]

From our point of view, the key does indeed lie in breeding and reintroduction, which are the scientific parameters that can enable a population to recover. In the case of the Val-d'Or herd, we've been hoping for four years to breed and reintroduce new individuals so that we can think about recovery.

That's where we have to go back to the objectives. Do we want to maintain the species and see it flourish? Do we want to maintain each of the herds if, biologically or scientifically, we've lost the battle because, collectively, we've made mistakes? Do we want to keep each individual alive? That's the fundamental question we need to ask ourselves: what do we want to achieve? Then, means like the ones you mention—breeding and reintroduction—can provide adequate answers.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'd like to come back to the Economic Development Agency for the Regions of Quebec.

The former Conservative government was very proactive in the forestry sector. It made it a priority. Do you feel that, since 2015, the Agency still has the forest industry in your regions as a priority, or has there been a gradual breakdown? We've lost track somewhat, as we're no longer in government. We will soon be back in power however; it's just a matter of time.

Has the Government of Canada supported the forestry industry since 2015?

[Jean-François Samray]

I think there are some initiatives aimed at research and raising awareness about the use of wood in the construction sector, to move from primary processing to secondary and tertiary processing. In any case, one thing remains fundamental: for tertiary processoring to be possible, you first have to harvest the wood. However, it's in the Investments in Forest Industry Transformation (ITIF) program, which you've heard a lot about, that credits have shrunk. This is the environment in which we operate. There are many approaches to calculating carbon footprints. That said, to get the benefits of these initiatives, you're going to need wood. If there's no wood, there's not much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Your time is nearly up, Mr. Gourde.

Ms. Chatel, you have the floor.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

I think we all agree that we are also a part of biodiversity. I'd like to thank Mr. Verreault for mentioning that. We have to be able to protect ourselves, the species and the environment that supports us, because, as someone said, you can't have an economy without an environment. We must make the required efforts.

I was looking at the chronology of events. In 2000, an independent species monitoring committee designated the boreal caribou as a threatened and vulnerable species. The Quebec government established this same designation in 2005. In 2016, the Quebec government committed to implementing a protection strategy for boreal and mountain caribou, but we're still waiting for it. Uncertainty is not good. In business, you want certainty.

As the government has said, if Quebec were taking the steps it has committed to undertake, we wouldn't need a decree. We don't want a decree either. We also stated publicly that we would take into account all the points of view expressed during the consultations.

We're talking about reforming the forestry regime to achieve a balance between ecology and economy. We need ecology. In my region, foresters understand quite well that we must protect our forests if we want to have a prosperous forest industry.

What are the proposed solutions to achieve this balance?

[Jean-François Samray]

As we said at the outset, Quebec's forestry regime is no longer doing the job. It's under tremendous pressure. It's incredibly rigid. There's only one transposal equation. The regime therefore has to change.

We need to change the regime, but we need to take the time to do it right. As Chief Dominique mentioned, the message the court is sending to the government is that it must take the time to hurry up. That's the situation we're in.

The industry is hurting too. As we mentioned, next year all Quebec companies will be affected by the decree. It hasn't come into force yet, but the mere fact that it's been published, along with maps, will hurt competitiveness for all Quebec companies.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

As I understand it, now is the time to act, to work together and come up with proactive solutions. I agree with that.

I don't have much time left, but I'd like Chief Dominique to tell us a little more about exactly what the caribou means to Indigenous peoples. I have two Indigenous communities in my riding. We always hear that it's important to think about the seventh generation when making policy. Sustainability and sustainable development are an intrinsic part of Indigenous culture.

[Chief Gilbert Dominique]

Yes, absolutely. The caribou is undeniably emblematic of our culture. Our culture is intimately linked to it. The caribou is present in our way of life, beyond providing food. The teachings we offer our generations are important, because we're also passing on the language as well as our values and principles.

If we collectively choose not to protect the caribou, a large swath of our culture will inevitably disappear, unfortunately. For us, this is unacceptable.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Although caribou hunting is important to Indigenous culture, you've taken steps to stop hunting them in order to support their restoration, haven't you?

[Chief Gilbert Dominique]

Absolutely. Even in the early 1990s, our elders were already telling us that things weren't going well, so we restricted caribou hunting. It was banned in 2003, but it had been restricted for about ten years before that.

Of course, we called on governments to get involved. Collectively, our great challenge is to ensure the survival and protection of the caribou, but we have to look at the issue in a fairly general way and rely on concerted action. Unfortunately, First Nations are never invited to the table to provide their contribution and collaboration. We have to take legal action to finally get the recognition that we need to be involved in these exercises, because we also have solutions to offer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Simard now has the floor.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to hear more about something I think is very important: the cumulative effect. Mr. Verreault and Mr. Samray alluded to it in their opening remarks.

Withdrawing certain forestry capacities has an impact across the entire industry, which is along the lines of what you said, because the wood chips used for other types of activities won't be available.

Could you tell us more about the cumulative effect?

[Frédéric Verreault]

The cumulative effect also serves to highlight many initiatives that have already been taken, in the spirit of what was raised by the speaker who preceded you. In the case of Assinica Park, for example, did we wait for a decree or a plan from the Quebec government? The answer is no. A park was established over ten years ago, and this project alone subtracted 140,000 cubic metres of timber from allowable cuts, the equivalent of the measures in the decree concerning the Val-d'Or herd. It's working, since the caribou population has grown from 500 to 800 in the space of 10 years. Obviously, these measures are already having an effect on the quantity of available wood.

In the northern sector of La Sarre, in the indirect perimeter of Val-d'Or, our company took the initiative of subtracting areas from industrial activity. That had an impact corresponding to 30,000 cubic metres of wood, and the caribou population is doing well in this sector. This work was carried out in conjunction with CPAWS, the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, First Nations and Ontario neighbours.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and there are many extremely credible and principled initiatives in place. There are indeed conservation measures, and they vary. In this case, as far as the application of the decree in the Val-d'Or area is concerned, activities related to mining, energy, ATVs and cottages can all be maintained, but the focus is on the forest industry. In other words, the decree acts not as a glass bell, but rather as a sieve. The focus is on wood processing, and yet, that is inactive.

Thus, all these measures overlap and add up. Invariably, if the decree is implemented as currently formulated, it will prevent the construction of tens of thousands of homes. In the case of Abitibi-Témiscamingue, the wood processed in the Val-d'Or area is shipped to Toronto every week, where it is used to build houses. The collateral effect is major, indeed. All you have to do is add up all the measures—those put in place over a decade ago, those already in place and the Quebec government's interim measures—to understand that we're not standing idly by in the face of the declining caribou population. Many credible things are being done today.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

So, without wanting to put words in your mouth, what I understand is that achieving the government's carbon neutrality objectives might be imperiled by the loss of forestry capacity.

Mr. Samray, I'd also like to hear you talk about the possible economic effects, if we take this cumulative effect into account and look at what might happen on the auction side. As we know, the forestry sector already has to deal with very high U.S. tariffs, forest fires and spruce budworm infestations.

[Jean-François Samray]

I will be brief, Mr. Chair.

Firstly, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, has been telling us in its past six reports—for as long as it has been publishing them, in fact—that humanity must do three things simultaneously. We must transition energy sources away from fossil fuels, protect biodiversity and decarbonize the construction sector through greater use of wood. Not just one of these things, but all of them simultaneously. Wood is therefore fundamental to achieving carbon reduction targets.

Secondly, it's fundamental to realize that the current system, which is linked to the forestry regime, no longer makes sense. It's a process that will take time, because on January 1st, 2025, the price of wood for any company sourcing from forest land will skyrocket, due to the square kilometers of forest removed from forest management by the decree. Everyone will rush to auction, which already has no wood, due to fires and other measures taken.

I would also remind you that, since the forestry regime came into effect, 70,000 square kilometers of forest have been substracted from forest management for biodiversity protection, largely for caribou. So, there's not much wood left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You barely have 15 seconds left, Mr. Simard.

[Chief Gilbert Dominique]

I would like to speak for about 30 seconds, to address the cumulative effect.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Go ahead, Chief Dominique.

[Chief Gilbert Dominique]

We're seeing the effect of industry and the economy, of course, but we mustn't forget the effects of land development, which certainly don't help the caribou. There's a whole range of factors.

Inevitably, when you develop the territory, you create gaps. Together, we can see that the caribou is also weakened by the cumulative effect caused by development.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I quite liked the end of Mr. Samray's answer. He mentioned the IPCC's recommendations, particularly on the use of wood for decarbonization. That is something the Committee should also bear in mind.

I'd like to ask Mr. Pelletier a question.

Earlier today, we talked about managing caribou predators as one of the possible ways to promote the restoration of caribou herds. However, the example of British Columbia was given, where predator management, including wolf management, was a short-term solution and incomplete in itself, since it had to be combined, in the medium term, with caribou habitat restoration.

Mr. Pelletier, how do you see this, as a forestry specialist?

[Louis Pelletier]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for the question.

As you mentioned, I am a forestry specialist. However, I'm not a specialist in biology, the animal world or the caribou. So I won't be able to answer your question, unfortunately.

The Chief Forester's strength lies in further developing forestry over time. Our work takes into account the forests we have today and, based on growth curves and forest stands over time, we are able to project the forests of the future. Therein lies the strength of the Chief Forester.

When we create recovery plans or scenarios, we are able, thanks to our team's expertise, to see how the forest regenerates and evolves over time, and then determine whether or not this habitat can be suitable for caribou. It's an expertise that we have, and one that enables us to inform decision makers in the province of Quebec and the public.

So I can't answer your question, but I can tell you that we have tools. Depending on the strategies or projects that require study, our expertise enables us to provide guidance to decision makers.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you for all your hard work, Mr. Pelletier, and thank you to your entire team.

I will now turn to Chief Dominique.

Since the Committee began its work, it's been mentioned here and there that the Quebec government promised a strategy in 2016 and that eight years had already gone by. You were forced to go to court, and the Superior Court agreed with you, saying that you had been improperly consulted, as an Indigenous nation and as a community with ancestral rights and a particular, intimate and cultural relationship with the caribou.

In your remarks, Chief Dominique, you said that this required immediate and urgent action.

We get the impression that the Quebec government has been dragging its feet since 2016, which is eight years ago. What immediate and urgent measures should be taken, specifically?